Need help against mongols

[zero0609]

Late era Byzantine campaign, on turn 83. I own all of greece, anatolia and the holy land down to Gaza, i was at war with the mongol for 40 turns, but i have been on the defensive the whole time because the majority of my army is fighting against the pope in italy and the fatimid in egypt. However a few turns ago 20+ stack of mongols suddenly showed up in georgia, sacking Tbilisi and Kutaisi, and they are heading into anatolia right now. Most of my army is away, and I doubt i could make enough armies to completely kill off 20 + stacks of mongols before they over run me. Any advice on how to beat the mongols is really appreciated

[Gogolometro]

Archers, tons of them. Toxotai, murtadoi, turkish archers. Best are 12-14 per garison. Recruit armenian archers too if have any.
Dont count on scutatoi, just 2-3 for initial charge. Work well with 1-2 schityon too. Esential acrites, not much just for general killer.
Tactic, deploy archers on walls like 2 units each part, near towers but not very close. Let the gap for ladders, towers, catapults fire.
Let their heavy infantry climb, than fire from both places with fire arrows.
A catapult or a magdonel can do wonders too.
If is fortress or citadel things will work well.
Dont go on field with them, no change.
Dont press hard, try to eliminate stack after stack. Imagine a line of loss, let say the circle of fire to be Trebizond, Cesareea, Adana. If you have any siphonatores you can use it if you afford to lose it at some point at multiple sieges.

[Beowulf1990]

Whatever you do, don't fight them in the field. EVER!
As the poster above me said, best is to wear them out in sieges. Although i personally focus on spearmen rather than archers they should work too.
With spearman the idea is to fight them in the gates or in the central square. Since they are mostly cavalry, you can seriously cause a bloodbath like that. Don't forget to use things like schiltrom!
If you have more than one wall, USE THEM, only use the first wall to do some missile damage and retreat in time.

[ShadowKiller2000]

Yes siege battles are the way to go. Use plenty of Mourtatoi for the long range missles and fire arrows.

Use your javelin troops for the walls to hit their troops hard, and then pull them back off the walls and let your heavy infantry deal with ladders and towers. Have your spears behind the gate and unleash the javelins again when the Mongol general comes through. If you are in a fortress or citidel use all the walls as stated above. Try and inflict as many casualties as possible with your tower and gate defences. By the time they get to the final gate their army should be very tired and easier to rout with fire arrows, and greek fire if you can spare the units.

Keep a few cavalry to charge and take out routers fleeing for their lives. Even if you lose settlements you should be able to bleed the Mongols dry with enough battles hopefully.

[bubbathegump]

Bridges

[Gogolometro]

I was thinking on spears before I played turks. On gracul with VH/VH the job was perfect with turkish archers in duble fire both ways. First, they have less infantry numbers. This mean only 5-6 salvos from 2 unit of archers will kill them most of them before any of your unit rout. Murtadoi are much better,and even toxotai are very good. I discover scutatoi is good compared with european spears, but their cavalry is no joke at all. So will be just "keep them more time on burning oil" units.
Second, archers on wall will fire on cavalry before and after they enter.
Important, 1-2 HA can lure them closer, to acrites and 1 heavy cavalry/spears. You must be smart and let them only mounted units available. Byzantine are good to face mongols but not imagine you will make wonders. The only army I bet can deal with them are frank/german/english late stacks.

[Sanderlicious]

Bridges

This is my favorite strategy, personally.

[Wrain]

This is my favorite strategy, personally.

Same for me. Playing Khwarezmian i was able to hold the bridge north of Gorgan against 4 stacks of Mongols losing about half of my full stack.

Spear militia + archers + uber dreaded commander

[zero0609]

Thanks for the advice guys, but my biggest problem right now, is there are way too many mongol stacks in anatolia, i can defend in a siege against even 4-5 stacks on the first turn, but the garrison is pretty much all wiped out after the siege, and the mongols will just attack the city again with more man, not allowing me to retrain or even reinforce the city, the mongol are advancing west in a slow speed but they are still destroying my economy by sacking my towns.

[Ichon]

Thanks for the advice guys, but my biggest problem right now, is there are way too many mongol stacks in anatolia, i can defend in a siege against even 4-5 stacks on the first turn, but the garrison is pretty much all wiped out after the siege, and the mongols will just attack the city again with more man, not allowing me to retrain or even reinforce the city, the mongol are advancing west in a slow speed but they are still destroying my economy by sacking my towns.

Try leaving a cheap unit or 2 outside your walls. The Mongols will most likely attack that unit which you can then retreat. Depending on how the Mongol armies are placed it might retreat to another spot near wall or further away. Either way it will likely draw off at least 1 Mongol army, 2 such units will do more and often block the Mongol's extra army from joining the siege even if forced to retreat away. Make sure its cheap unit as often will be forced to fight. Just flee as soon as you enter battle and sometime 3/4s of the unit will survive though usually against Mongols its less than that. As long as less than 3 full stacks assault at a single time usually your garrison full of archer will survive with small losses. More than 3 stacks and you will start running out of arrow and face very difficult melee fights.

Preserve your best units as long as possible since they will make the most difference in the final few sieges. If its 20 Mongol stacks siege a single city... probably that city falls eventually unless its a Fortress or Citadel. With Fortress you can often take less than 100 losses each siege and even 4 stacks at a time in 5 battles it will be over with probably a full Byzantine garrison reduced only 1/2 or less even with no time for retraining.

It might be worthwhile to sacrifice some worthless FM and a small army to draw off enough Mongols to slip in some reinforcements. Definitely use spies and plan your movements carefully.

[Gorrrrrn]

if possible make peace with your other enemies and concentrate on the Mongols.
even better form alliances against them.

[Neptune7]

Recruit as many all horse army stacks as you can and meet them in the field and charge. Gang up. First with the fast light cavalry unit to engage the horse archer unit, then with heavy cavalry unit for the kill. That's what I do. ..when i am able to afford such expensive armies. Which is not too often. I mostly just run away. ..

[Spartan90]

Recruit as many all horse army stacks as you can and meet them in the field and charge. Gang up. First with the fast light cavalry unit to engage the horse archer unit, then with heavy cavalry unit for the kill. That's what I do. ..when i am able to afford such expensive armies. Which is not too often. I mostly just run away. ..

I tend to disagree. Although you can match them arrow for arrow with the Byzantines, it's unbelievable expensive. Fight them in siege defense or on bridges, where their mobility counts for nothing. Sieges are better, however, as you can get your heavy cavalry to go out of your side gates, charge their siege equipment, then slam into the rear of the Mongols when they are fighting your Spearmen in wall breaches / gate. This way there'll be no routers, as they will be completely surrounded.

[ecclesian_knight]

Most of my army is away, and I doubt i could make enough armies to completely kill off 20 + stacks of mongols before they over run me. Any advice on how to beat the mongols is really appreciated

Good Luck. you need all the luck in that situation

[Mithrantir]

Sieges are your best bet. Also if you decide to go against them outside a city, try to choose the battleground yourself. And that should be a place where their HA can't move around freely (bridges, mountains).
At the sieges never allow them to go pass the gate. Hold them there as much as possible. It's the best place for keeping their mounted units immobile and thus easier to kill. I usually put 3 units of spearmen there with the command to hold their position, and leave heavy infantry on the back until i see that they can get into the frey without the fear of being charged at by a cavalry unit. Also i try hard to have units surrounded thus decreasing their morale and hoping for a tsunami effect.

You will lose a couple of cities for sure, but if you play your cards right (that is merge the wounded units) you will be able to lose a city while the Mongols will have wasted 4 or more stacks trying to take the city.

[philipjd]

Seiges are good at attritioning the mongols, but expect to swap cities/fortresses for destroying a stack(s).

In the field, bridges are a good way to meet them as it funnels their attack, best with catapults and/or trebuchets with your army. Another way, especially in eastern anatolia is moutains, defend from the top of a moutain against them is also effective, but hard to find a good place at times. With an army composed purely of horse archers and a good general with at most one other melee cavalry unit you can fight and win in the field, but beware of mongol armies made up of purely heavy lancers (which I've come across) which will defeat your horse archer army.

My best tactic is to have a city and fortress close together (close enough to move to the city , attack then retreat back to the fortress to resupply/reinforce your attacking army), use night combats to separate any multiple mongol stacks into 'one' that you can destroy ~ depending on Mongol leaders of course.

When ever I play a nation that occupies the middle east or the steppes, it is only after the mongols have started to fall back (if!) that I judge that I have 'won', assuming that all other considerations have been met.

[Callawyn]

The AI is as stupid strategically as well as tactically. Don't just focus on their main pack of armies, take back regions wherever possible. They're main bunch of armies can take quite awhile to wear down, and you'll lose some provinces, but with so much of their strength concentrated they are weak elsewhere. Try to limit/reduce the size of their empire. Send a bunch of spies to scout them out and discover where they're weak. Take back every province you can. Having a boat on the Caspian can be useful for transport. Just like you, the AI often doesn't garrison its rear areas with much.

[Gogolometro]

I beat mongols with turks, near Tbilisi on helm of Caucasus. I go to a high hill and deploy the catapults(4) and turkish archers in a pattern, 1 catapult, 1 archer. Behind I set only 2 saracen militia, some fari cavalry and 1 mercenary persian cavalry. Mongols was defetead.
First, you need catapults, they save your day. Archers will reduce their numbers before reach you, turkish archers are long range troops. Fari are same range. Persian heavy cavalry, armored will charge and will help you when archers are engaged in melee. At last, with fari cavalry without ammo, use them like charge cavalry. Finnaly I got a heroic victory. I am no more afraid on fields with mongols, must test ottoman infantry and hassham/gulam duo. I am closer to 1300. Any ideea when janissaries are available?

[vtec.dominion]

I am closer to 1300. Any ideea when janissaries are available?

I am not sure but somehow i recall it is 1340.

I am in 20th turn of late campaign (playing as Turks), Kwarezmians eliminated already and the Mongols busy taking the rebel provinces. Well, i have taken Alamut and Kermansah off K-Shah and bought an alliance with
Mongols for 12x1000 florins tribute simply to prepare for their invasion (didnt expect Kwarz fall so fast). Already filled Alamut with Ottoman Infantry and Turkish Archers/Turkish Javelinmens and Kermansah with Archers/Saracen Militia/Javelinmens and waiting for their move.
They WILL betray me right ? Or shall i provoke them to wage war ?

[Gogolometro]

Mongols never keep an alliance. Be ready.