Guard mode, shield wall?

[Swerg]

My apologies if THIS has been brought up before, or, indeed, if this is the wrong forum. I think the issue is a bit ambiguous, so I'll stick it here and trust that a mod will move it if it's in need of moving.

Alright, so

In regards to guard mode, for me at least, it seems to have a NEGATIVE effect on a units performance...I haven't done any formal experiments, but I have watched the tide of battle turn based on my turning guard mode off. It seems to have little effect on the actions of units...

Shield wall is more or less the same thing, besides packing all my dwarves into a tight formation, the better to fill them with arrows in, it seems to make them die faster in the melee AND causes a few dwarves to shuffle forward out of the shield wall once battle is joined, which probably contributes to the accelerated death rate.

Is this a bug? Something to discourage people from using guard mode?

[YassirX]

Guardmode means the units stay on their position, this means only the front is attacking the enemy. Without Guardmode some units will also move to attack the enemy from the side. I use Guardmode to tank enemy melee forces, a spear unit in Guardmode can survive longer than without as they will not leave their position. I use my ranged forces to attack those tanked enemys from the sides. Cavalary charge is even more effective when charging them from behind.

[Baywatch]

My apologies if THIS has been brought up before, or, indeed, if this is the wrong forum. I think the issue is a bit ambiguous, so I'll stick it here and trust that a mod will move it if it's in need of moving.

Alright, so

In regards to guard mode, for me at least, it seems to have a NEGATIVE effect on a units performance...I haven't done any formal experiments, but I have watched the tide of battle turn based on my turning guard mode off. It seems to have little effect on the actions of units...

Shield wall is more or less the same thing, besides packing all my dwarves into a tight formation, the better to fill them with arrows in, it seems to make them die faster in the melee AND causes a few dwarves to shuffle forward out of the shield wall once battle is joined, which probably contributes to the accelerated death rate.

Is this a bug? Something to discourage people from using guard mode?

Placing a unit with spearwall in defensive stance, will (or at least should according to other M2TW mods) cause the unit to hold their line and take less casualties, the draw back is the unit doesn't kill much since the only units fighting are the ones on the front row. This is great for absorbing charges and holding a line to protect your ranged units, or to allow the boiling oil from your gatehouse to continue pouring on the enemy attempting to squeeze through it.

A unit with shieldwall/defensive stance is great for absorbing cavalry charges and as far as I can tell, it reduces the damage from incoming archer fire (so long as the archers are firing directly at the shieldwall and not behind it.) It essentially turns your unit into a tank, so long as it's attacked from the front.

Another good thing to keep in mind pertaining to defensive stance in general: no matter how much mass is up against your troops they won't budge, which can be great in certain circumstances especially when fighting horde factions.

[Swerg]

That's the problem, guard mode doesn't seem to do any of those things. All it seems to do is make the units in guard mode die faster.

I guess something must have gotten screwed up for me somewhere. I'll try reinstalling tomorrow.

[Ruanek]

That's the problem, guard mode doesn't seem to do any of those things. All it seems to do is make the units in guard mode die faster.

I guess something must have gotten screwed up for me somewhere. I'll try reinstalling tomorrow.

The only thing Guard Mode specifically does is tell the unit to not send some of the people to attack the sides of the enemy unit. I guess this make it more vulnerable to getting hit by a unit not in guard mode, but either way it's not a huge difference.

[Gaizokubanou]

A very fun way to use shield wall for dwarf warriors...

Activate shield wall, and instead of clicking on the enemy you want to attack, just order your dwarf warriors to move past the enemy you want to attack. Your dwarf warriors in shield wall formation will just plow through enemy formation while taking minimum losses. Once you get to middle, tell them to attack that unit. Watch the enemy unit get massacre.

It'll work on VH, I used it plenty of times in my dwarf campaign. Very good for city street clearing too.

[Red Paladin]

in my experience, spear units are better in guard mode while sword/axe/etc are better not in guard mode.

[Isack Citees]

I agree with Red Paladin. Guard mode only seems effective for me with spears.

Activate shield wall, and instead of clicking on the enemy you want to attack, just order your dwarf warriors to move past the enemy you want to attack. Your dwarf warriors in shield wall formation will just plow through enemy formation while taking minimum losses. Once you get to middle, tell them to attack that unit. Watch the enemy unit get massacre.

WORKS!!

[mattttb]

WORKS!!

Seconded

[mattttb]

WORKS!!

Seconded!

(EDIT: sorry for double post, new to the forum, anyway to delete a post?)

[Deedlit]

I have my Generals on gaurd mode because it stops them from running after fleeing troops and stops them from charging into spearmen and stuff.

[Swerg]

Alright, I did a series of experiments. The basic setup was:
4 units of Dwarf warriors
(Stats are: 6/16/4)
1 dwarf nobleman (general)

4 units of Clan Warriors (Rhun)
^These guys are slightly inferior to the Dwarf Warriors, in terms of defense, but have a higher attack. Stats are 8/11/4
1 unit of those crazy armored axe guys (general)

The battlefield was the Pellanor Fields (the second one down)

1st Experiment:
All units in shield wall/guard mode, placed in a line and left to do their work.

The Easterlings were very cooperative and charged right into the dwarves. As I noted before, the first rank of dwarves in the shield wall moved slightly forward, creating 'bulges' in front of each unit with a hollow area behind them. I think this might be one reason for the high casualty rates.

The Easterling's general did not involve himself until all of the dwarf warrior units had routed.

Result:
Not counting the efforts of my Dwarf noblemen (who inflicted almost as many casualties on the enemy as all the others combined):
All of my units were totally destroyed.
Each unit of dwarf warriors inflicted, respectively, 55, 60, 68 and 62 casualties.


Experiment 2:
Dwarves in shield wall mode, but not guard mode

All else is identical to the previous experiment.

As before, the first few ranks of dwarves advanced forward into the enemy formation, creating the 'bulges'.

Interestingly, this was resolved by deactivating and reactivating shield-wall mode.

Result:
The Dwarves did MUCH better this time, casualties inflicted were:
118, 59, 114 and 95.

Further, a unit of the Easterlings was routed, at which point their general involved himself, which probably contributed to the rapid Dwarf defeat. The trend here is, however, still obvious.

However, all units were still destroyed.


Experiment 3:
All units in guard mode

All else the same

Note that there were no 'bulges' this time. All the dwarves remained nicely in line.

Result:
I closed the battle when all the enemy units routed, the enemy general did not get involved until the very last phase at which point I deflected him with my own general unit.
129, 126, 91 and 128 casualties inflicted and all enemy routed. However, one unit of Dwarves was totally destroyed and the other three sustained more casualties than they inflicted.


Experiment 4:
No guard or shield wall.

All else the same

Result:
141, 81, 147, 137 casualties inflicted, no units lost and, while the Dwarves were still fairly decimated (all units except 1 reduced below 1/2 strength) they inflicted more casualties on the enemy than they suffered this time and routed the entire enemy army (including their general, without killing or capturing him.)



Anybody else care to repeat these experiments? I'd like to know if these results are particular to my game.

[Baywatch]

Alright, I did a series of experiments. The basic setup was:
4 units of Dwarf warriors
(Stats are: 6/16/4)
1 dwarf nobleman (general)

4 units of Clan Warriors (Rhun)
^These guys are slightly inferior to the Dwarf Warriors, in terms of defense, but have a higher attack. Stats are 8/11/4
1 unit of those crazy armored axe guys (general)

The battlefield was the Pellanor Fields (the second one down)

1st Experiment:
All units in shield wall/guard mode, placed in a line and left to do their work.

The Easterlings were very cooperative and charged right into the dwarves. As I noted before, the first rank of dwarves in the shield wall moved slightly forward, creating 'bulges' in front of each unit with a hollow area behind them. I think this might be one reason for the high casualty rates.

The Easterling's general did not involve himself until all of the dwarf warrior units had routed.

Result:
Not counting the efforts of my Dwarf noblemen (who inflicted almost as many casualties on the enemy as all the others combined):
All of my units were totally destroyed.
Each unit of dwarf warriors inflicted, respectively, 55, 60, 68 and 62 casualties.


Experiment 2:
Dwarves in shield wall mode, but not guard mode

All else is identical to the previous experiment.

As before, the first few ranks of dwarves advanced forward into the enemy formation, creating the 'bulges'.

Interestingly, this was resolved by deactivating and reactivating shield-wall mode.

Result:
The Dwarves did MUCH better this time, casualties inflicted were:
118, 59, 114 and 95.

Further, a unit of the Easterlings was routed, at which point their general involved himself, which probably contributed to the rapid Dwarf defeat. The trend here is, however, still obvious.

However, all units were still destroyed.


Experiment 3:
All units in guard mode

All else the same

Note that there were no 'bulges' this time. All the dwarves remained nicely in line.

Result:
I closed the battle when all the enemy units routed, the enemy general did not get involved until the very last phase at which point I deflected him with my own general unit.
129, 126, 91 and 128 casualties inflicted and all enemy routed. However, one unit of Dwarves was totally destroyed and the other three sustained more casualties than they inflicted.


Experiment 4:
No guard or shield wall.

All else the same

Result:
141, 81, 147, 137 casualties inflicted, no units lost and, while the Dwarves were still fairly decimated (all units except 1 reduced below 1/2 strength) they inflicted more casualties on the enemy than they suffered this time and routed the entire enemy army (including their general, without killing or capturing him.)



Anybody else care to repeat these experiments? I'd like to know if these results are particular to my game.

I think you may be missing the point behind shield wall/defensive formation. Individually your units in shield wall will do less damage to the enemy, however they should also last longer than units not in shield wall. When you place units in defensive formations your essentially sacrificing the effectiveness of the shield wall/defensive stance unit to improve the effectiveness of the entire army and keep the enemy off of your squishy units. A unit in shield wall should perform worse individually than a unit out of it.

[Gaizokubanou]

Anybody else care to repeat these experiments? I'd like to know if these results are particular to my game.

Your results seem to be along the line of my own experience. That's why I suggested a way of making a great use out of shield wall, which is using them has a weird medieval bulldozer to break up enemy formation.

Standard formation will be more combat effective (except for spearwall units) if you simply right click on enemy to let the AI sort it out without any micro management.

[Strattios]

Try copying Alexander the Great. Use both modes to create an anvil while you flank the enemy with cavalry or assault infantry. Try to avoid guard mode with pike units as only the front attacks. Both modes also allow you to stretch your units thinner as their sole job is to hold (thus freeing up other units for attack).

[Baywatch]

Try copying Alexander the Great. Use both modes to create an anvil while you flank the enemy with cavalry or assault infantry. Try to avoid guard mode with pike units as only the front attacks. Both modes also allow you to stretch your units thinner as their sole job is to hold (thus freeing up other units for attack).

QFT, exactly what I was trying to say only said much better and simplified.

[Erunion Telcontar]

I conducted a similar group of experiments for SS with RR/RC, and my results were nearly identical to yours. (I also experimented with archery units, getting similar results) If you can dig them up, those results are posted over in the RR/RC forum for SS.
Anyhow, there is one other, huge, massive, wonderful use for Guard mode.
Archers. When in guard mode, ranged units will continue to fire even if they are engaged in melee. No more 3-4 overeager troops breaking through your lines to render your archers ineffective. They'll keep shooting anyway. (If they're hit by a lot of units, they'll stop shooting. Simply give them a specific target to get them going again.) This is very useful in the field, but is far more useful on the walls. Stick an archery unit in a clump a little ways away from a seige tower or a ladder. As the enemy pours out, order them to fire. When they engage you, make sure you keep firing. While only 4-5 of their units will be doing any damage, your entire battalion will be unloading arrows (or javelins, or crossbow bolts) at point blank range into your foe. It is absolutely deadly.
Do be aware, this does not work 100% of the time, occasionally the unit will just refuse to obey orders, or have so many troops engaged in melee at once it is simply unable to shoot. But it does work some 90% of the time, to deadly effect.

Good hunting! (Note: The wall trick works best with AP units.)

[Mikail Mengsk]

I almost always use guard mode with ranged units too for these reasons.

[dannyalex]

Only one Sindarin word "Thangail"!give them nothing but take them everything!!!

it would be cool instead shield wall button we had thangail,and instead wedge formation we had dirnaith,basic the same thing in diferrent languages,also tthe dunedain use dirnaith in ifantry formation and not just cavalry

[W1Z21]

use gaurd mode with spearwall for best effects