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Thread: The US Army is broken and worn out!

  1. #1

    Default The US Army is broken and worn out!

    Well, so says one congressman named John Murtha (D-Pa). Even if it was true, which it isn't, is this the sort of thing you would want to say out loud in front of the enemy? I'm sorry, decorated hero or not, but did he not learn anything in Viet Nam? Maybe he got hit in the head too many times, bless his heart, but the man has lost his mind.

    To be sure, this is like watching another Robert Bird meltdown, or something.

    Here ya go:

    ------------------------------------
    Murtha Says Army Is 'Broken, Worn Out'
    Thu Dec 1, 4:50 PM ET



    Most U.S. troops will leave Iraq within a year because the Army is "broken, worn out" and "living hand to mouth," Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record) told a civic group.

    Two weeks ago, Murtha created a storm of comment when he called for U.S. troops to leave Iraq now. The Democratic congressman spoke to a group of community and business leaders in Latrobe on Wednesday, the same day President Bush said troops would be withdrawn when they've achieved victory, not under an artificial deadline set by politicians.

    Murtha predicted most troops will be out of Iraq within a year.

    "I predict he'll make it look like we're staying the course," Murtha said, referring to Bush. "Staying the course is not a policy."

    Murtha, 73, the ranking Democrat on the House Appropriations defense subcommittee, expressed pessimism about Iraq's stability and said the Iraqis know who the insurgents are, but don't always share that information with U.S. troops. He said a civil war is likely because of ongoing factionalism among Sunni Arabs, and Kurds and Shiites.

    He also said he was wrong to vote to support the war.

    "I admit I made a mistake when I voted for war," Murtha said. "I'm looking at the future of the United States military."

    Murtha, a decorated Vietnam war veteran, said the Pennsylvania National Guard is "stretched so thin" that it won't be able to send fully equipped units to Iraq next year. Murtha predicted it will cost $50 billion to upgrade military equipment nationwide, but says the federal government is already reducing future purchases to save money.

    Murtha, who represents a western Pennsylvania district that includes Latrobe, was first elected to Congress in 1974.

    Lt. Col. Chris Cleaver, spokesman for the Pennsylvania National Guard at Fort Indiantown Gap, said "there are some deployment concerns."

    Cleaver said some guard units had to leave equipment in Iraq when they returned to the United States, which could cause training problems here.

    But Cleaver also said most of the 2,100 Guard troops now deployed with the 2nd Brigade Combat Team can't be sent back to Iraq for a second tour of duty anyway, because of regulations that limit redeployment.

    Copyright © 2005 The Associated Press.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  2. #2

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    While I'm against the war in Irak, now that they're there, they cannot just go away like that. We can just hope that it doesn't turn out into another puppet state (can we even hope?)...

  3. #3
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Indeed what a crazy bastard. Who is he to estimate costs and scoff at the military. The man fought in a war 40 years ago it's not like he's a professianl for modern military. He hasn't been to Iraq and no one is gonna tell him in the first place. He's making ludicris assements of money and the current Military standing. People like this make me sick ''I fought in a war 50 years ago and let me tell you trenches are they way to go!'' ...right... mabey this is the reason the senior class citizens aren't respected >.<

  4. #4

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    We can't pull out of Iraq right now...it's not that we don't want to, it's that we can't. If we do, Iraq will probably erupt into a bloody civil war. We have to stay and finish the job we started.

    But it's also true that our military is stretched thin...very thin. If something goes wrong, we might face another Draft.

  5. #5

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    Yet you hear nothing in the press of Liebermans speech.

    Our Troops Must Stay
    America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.

    BY JOE LIEBERMAN
    Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

    I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

    Progress is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite South remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad to the east, Tikrit to the north and Ramadi to the west, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here, too, there is progress.

    There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

    It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern. The terrorists are intent on stopping this by instigating a civil war to produce the chaos that will allow Iraq to replace Afghanistan as the base for their fanatical war-making. We are fighting on the side of the 27 million because the outcome of this war is critically important to the security and freedom of America. If the terrorists win, they will be emboldened to strike us directly again and to further undermine the growing stability and progress in the Middle East, which has long been a major American national and economic security priority.





    Before going to Iraq last week, I visited Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been the only genuine democracy in the region, but it is now getting some welcome company from the Iraqis and Palestinians who are in the midst of robust national legislative election campaigns, the Lebanese who have risen up in proud self-determination after the Hariri assassination to eject their Syrian occupiers (the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah militias should be next), and the Kuwaitis, Egyptians and Saudis who have taken steps to open up their governments more broadly to their people. In my meeting with the thoughtful prime minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, he declared with justifiable pride that his country now has the most open, democratic political system in the Arab world. He is right.
    In the face of terrorist threats and escalating violence, eight million Iraqis voted for their interim national government in January, almost 10 million participated in the referendum on their new constitution in October, and even more than that are expected to vote in the elections for a full-term government on Dec. 15. Every time the 27 million Iraqis have been given the chance since Saddam was overthrown, they have voted for self-government and hope over the violence and hatred the 10,000 terrorists offer them. Most encouraging has been the behavior of the Sunni community, which, when disappointed by the proposed constitution, registered to vote and went to the polls instead of taking up arms and going to the streets. Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it.

    None of these remarkable changes would have happened without the coalition forces led by the U.S. And, I am convinced, almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country.

    The leaders of Iraq's duly elected government understand this, and they asked me for reassurance about America's commitment. The question is whether the American people and enough of their representatives in Congress from both parties understand this. I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.

    Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

    The leaders of America's military and diplomatic forces in Iraq, Gen. George Casey and Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, have a clear and compelling vision of our mission there. It is to create the environment in which Iraqi democracy, security and prosperity can take hold and the Iraqis themselves can defend their political progress against those 10,000 terrorists who would take it from them.





    Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do. And it is important to make it clear to the American people that the plan has not remained stubbornly still but has changed over the years. Mistakes, some of them big, were made after Saddam was removed, and no one who supports the war should hesitate to admit that; but we have learned from those mistakes and, in characteristic American fashion, from what has worked and not worked on the ground. The administration's recent use of the banner "clear, hold and build" accurately describes the strategy as I saw it being implemented last week.
    We are now embedding a core of coalition forces in every Iraqi fighting unit, which makes each unit more effective and acts as a multiplier of our forces. Progress in "clearing" and "holding" is being made. The Sixth Infantry Division of the Iraqi Security Forces now controls and polices more than one-third of Baghdad on its own. Coalition and Iraqi forces have together cleared the previously terrorist-controlled cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Tal Afar, and most of the border with Syria. Those areas are now being "held" secure by the Iraqi military themselves. Iraqi and coalition forces are jointly carrying out a mission to clear Ramadi, now the most dangerous city in Al-Anbar province at the west end of the Sunni Triangle.

    Nationwide, American military leaders estimate that about one-third of the approximately 100,000 members of the Iraqi military are able to "lead the fight" themselves with logistical support from the U.S., and that that number should double by next year. If that happens, American military forces could begin a drawdown in numbers proportional to the increasing self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces in 2006. If all goes well, I believe we can have a much smaller American military presence there by the end of 2006 or in 2007, but it is also likely that our presence will need to be significant in Iraq or nearby for years to come.

    The economic reconstruction of Iraq has gone slower than it should have, and too much money has been wasted or stolen. Ambassador Khalilzad is now implementing reform that has worked in Afghanistan--Provincial Reconstruction Teams, composed of American economic and political experts, working in partnership in each of Iraq's 18 provinces with its elected leadership, civil service and the private sector. That is the "build" part of the "clear, hold and build" strategy, and so is the work American and international teams are doing to professionalize national and provincial governmental agencies in Iraq.

    These are new ideas that are working and changing the reality on the ground, which is undoubtedly why the Iraqi people are optimistic about their future--and why the American people should be, too.





    I cannot say enough about the U.S. Army and Marines who are carrying most of the fight for us in Iraq. They are courageous, smart, effective, innovative, very honorable and very proud. After a Thanksgiving meal with a great group of Marines at Camp Fallujah in western Iraq, I asked their commander whether the morale of his troops had been hurt by the growing public dissent in America over the war in Iraq. His answer was insightful, instructive and inspirational: "I would guess that if the opposition and division at home go on a lot longer and get a lot deeper it might have some effect, but, Senator, my Marines are motivated by their devotion to each other and the cause, not by political debates."
    Thank you, General. That is a powerful, needed message for the rest of America and its political leadership at this critical moment in our nation's history. Semper Fi.

    Mr. Lieberman is a Democratic senator from Connecticut.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  6. #6

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    The odds are against us in Iraq. Read here

  7. #7

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    Weve been successful three out of the last 5 times. Thats not so bad. And it appears were more succesful than most. We will win in Cuba eventually also .
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  8. #8

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    Beautiful idea to add JL's speech Rush.

    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nationalist_Cause
    The odds are against us in Iraq. Read here
    Albeit that is an interesting article (if not a little hard on the eyes), I just don't buy it. Different era, different circumstances. Yes, it's a daunting task, something some of us have been warning about since day one. But we still had to do something before things got out of hand. So, some figures show the cards are stacked against us. Meh, this is America and we have strong allies. Once France and Germany realize they have more at stake than we do from the ME, they will start helping us maybe and then those figures are basically mute.

    In any event, I'm sure Rush will come along soon with all those doom and gloom news clips that were all over the media back in 1945-1950ish --telling us how miserable the administation was doing it's job rebuilding Japan and Germany and how it was all going to fall apart and spiral into Soviet hands.

    Germany and Japan are doing just fine today.

    Don't let the neysayers get you down.
    Last edited by Francisco Montana; December 02, 2005 at 12:07 AM.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  9. #9

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    what is this? insurgent propaganda coming from a US congressman? i respect what murtha has done in the past, but now he is nothing more than a puppet dangling from the end of a democratic string.

    even if the army was "broken and worn down" what does announcing it to the whole world achieve. if anything, he has just painted a big red target on our troops and makes the US military seem even more beatable.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1{H][NA
    if anything, he has just painted a big red target on our troops and makes the US military seem even more beatable.
    Yep. Makes my stomache churn.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  11. #11
    Zuwxiv's Avatar Bear Claus
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    Realistically, we are outnunbered and stretched thin. The logical and strategic choice would be to use the Iraqis as cannon fodder, meat shields, etc.

    But that is not politically or morally correct. Someone like Saddam could do it, and the problem would be fixed. Democracy is and inherantly slow and unresponsive form of government.

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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nationalist_Cause
    The odds are against us in Iraq. Read here
    They say that because our forces are stretched thin. We simply don't have enough troops on the ground for an efficient occupation.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    They say that because our forces are stretched thin. We simply don't have enough troops on the ground for an efficient occupation.
    When they're United States Marines, they don't need alot of troops on the ground for an efficient occupation. :wink:

    Ok, yes more troops would be nice. But like was said, you goto war with the military you have, not the military you wish you had.

    Yes, I love Rummy, sue me.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Alameda
    When they're United States Marines, they don't need alot of troops on the ground for an efficient occupation. :wink:
    Marines are primarily an assault force (first ones in), not a police force. Marines should not be used for occupation. It's primarily the Army's job to do the whole police and occupation work. In order to achieve a successful occupation, the Army needs to have more boots on the ground in Iraq, plain and simple.

  15. #15

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    I bet they felt that way during the Battle of the Bulge, too.

    Marines adapt and overcome.

    I have all the faith in the world in our Corp.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Alameda
    I bet they felt that way during the Battle of the Bulge, too.

    Marines adapt and overcome.

    I have all the faith in the world in our Corp.
    These days the Marine Corps is not meant to be used as an occupying force though. There are only around 178,000 Marines. But the Army has 300,000 active duty service men in addition to another 700,000 comprised of national guardsmen and reservists.

  17. #17

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    Although the wording is a little strong, isn't there some truth to it however? It seems every two weeks there's a new story about a coalition force that doesn't have the proper equipment or armour on their transports. Every week more and more soldiers die, every couple of days a new bombing, so on and so forth. Hardly a bed of rose petals.

  18. #18

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    We pulled out of Iraq with our tail between our legs last time so what difference does it make if we do it again?
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric
    We pulled out of Iraq with our tail between our legs last time so what difference does it make if we do it again?
    Whatever happened to learning from our mistakes? To judge Bush Sr is pretty brasen, however. He had a incredibly diverse coalition of European and ARAB nations. Had he gone to Baghdad, he would have shattered that alliance completely.

    I think our biggest mistake at the time was to over estimate the internal forces against Saddam and to underestimate the lenght to which we would exact revenge on his own people. We simply shouldn't have made promises we couldn't keep.

    Niave? Undeniable.

    In good faith? I believe so.

    Let's not brake this promise.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    Weve been successful three out of the last 5 times. Thats not so bad. And it appears were more succesful than most. We will win in Cuba eventually also .
    3 of what out of what 5? Just want to know so I can refute your claim.


    As for marines and Battle of Bulge which was mentioned. IIRC there were 0 marines at Bulge. Europe was army, Asia was marines.

    And you NEED lots of men to effectively occupy a territory. No matter how marine one thinks he is he cannot control something he is not there to control. Effectively currently US control of Iraq is limited to weapons range of their units.

    Reality, despite nice propaganda rubbish by Liebermann (if things were going so well why we can find from even this forum links to polls showing very little support by iraqis to coalition and it's actions and why resistance is gaining people and support instead of losing it). As an example Liebermann and his "27million to 10000"-claim which as, again IIRC, duly noted very wrong even by US commanders. (regarding amount of resistance) Of course there is now more electricity than before since no bastard is always bombing the powerplants when they get fixed.
    Oh yes, and I have to say I am impressed by progress made in Iraq. The recent news of torture of innocent prisoners by "duly elected" goverment is clear sign of great progress.


    But withdrawing is out of question. Iraq will see civil war but it cannot be permitted just yet. Global economy would take too big hit.


    Everyone is warhero, genius and millionaire in Internet, so don't be surprised that I'm not impressed.

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