Composition of Historical Armies.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

I thought it would be a good idea to open a thread to discuss the composition of armies in the late Roman period so that each faction can be played as accurately as possible.

The idea is to build up a resource here wherein each faction can be presented in terms of a playable realistic army stack using historical sources and examples of ingame screen shots or online play - this will help us all when deciding how to develop a strategy.

I want to be a little surprising to start with and begin discussion with not the Roman faction but a little played but much loved faction (by myself) - the Lakhmids!

For Lakhmids, of course, I will also mean any late Roman period Arab/Saracen/Scenitae force played ingame or online.

I will post later today in detail some sources I am reading at the moment - Shahid being an invaluable modern writer and also the Ammonni Monachi Relatio to present what I think is a credible and effective Arab army composition - but please also add ideas here and sources/ citations to develop this first faction examination!

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

OK - let's clarify what we mean by 'Saracens', etc. in this time-frame.

I draw on Irfan Shahid here for the majority of information. His monumental works are exhaustive on Roman/Arab relations in the 4th/5th and 6th centuries.

In terms of SAJ3 and IBRR we are mainly dealing with the Arab cultures east and south of the main Roman and Sassanian spheres of influence. These Arabs can be divided into 3 religious affinities - Christian, Zoroastrian and native Pagan - and into 2 main cultural zones - sedantry and nomadic. So, for example, we have rich cavanserai towns such as Petra filled with sedantry Arabs mixed in with Syraic and Aramaic traders who employ troops heavily influenced by Roman or Sassanian styles - and also remote desert ranges with nomadic Arabs who roam large with light raiding forces built around skirmishing tactics. Both Sassanid Persia and Christian Rome depended on confederations of Arabs to act as desert shields, each against the opposing empire - the Lakhmids being predominantly Sassanian orientated (no pun intended) with the Tanukhids being equally tied to Roman spheres of influence and pay.

So, as a player, historically what kind of 10,000 solidi army should we field?

Three primary texts exist which bring to mind Arab actions in the field: Ammianus, Zosimus amd the Ammonni Monachi Relatio - and all three stress differing elements.

The last speaks of an Arab foederati force engaging a Blemmye raiding force and engaging in archery action for several hours until the Blemmye were annihilated. These Arabs were mounted warriors under a converted Christian chieftain named Obedianus or 'Ubayd, the 'servant' of God. Ammianus speaks of light cavalry outside Constantinople who were so ferocious in their actions (well one Arab in particular) that they scared off the entire Gothic host (!). Zosimus refers to skillful light cavalry harassing and defeating Gothic warriors before Adrianople (although some scholars argue that the writer has simply misplaced the Constantinople scene). Shahid refers frequently to Arab horsemen as being primarily lance or bow orientated with little mention of Arab infantry as such.

So: a realistic Arab force should deploy a strong core Roman or Sassanid styled heavy cavalry as the nucleus of its 20-strong stack - say 1 general unit with up to 4 heavy cataphract units. This is one quarter of the army and is your backbone.

5/6 units of medium archer/lance cavalry should follow. You will use these to probe/flank and harass opposing cavalry off the field.

Your main infantry contingent should comprise of a further 5/6 main line light to medium infantry and 5/6 archer infantry. So in summation you would be looking at an equal split between cavalry and infantry for an Arab force with half your infantry being archers.

Toe-to-toe infantry action is lethal to Arab armies. You simply do not have the troops to best Roman or Sassanian veterans. Instead, your main action on the battlefield is your fluidity.

Envelop, antagonise, distract - these are your tactics.

Assemble your infantry spearmen to the rear with the archers forward to support the cavalry. Make the enemy advance to you over as much ground as possible. Work your cavalry around the flanks. Disrupt the battle-line with archery and feints. Make him sweat in the desert heat. Eliminate the enemy cavalry and then dominate the ground.

But it won't be easy. Use the heavy cavalry only in the decisive moment of the battle - throw them in too early and you will never recover.

Historically, Arab armies were effective - the Roman foederati under Mavia defeated two Roman field armies - one under a Magister, Julius - but these were religiously motivated Orthodox Arabs rebelling against the Arian heresy of Valens and so had an edge over the Romans.

[juvenus]

I can only further encourage you to keep on going, for I have no experience with Arab factions.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Thanks, Juvenus - I had a horrible experience with JH online once with the Arabs and began to look into them after that!

OK - some screen shots:

Here we have a typical historical Arab 20 stack on 10,000 (with upgrades!)

You can see here in the first shot a central thin line of Jund infantry fronted by masses of archers and some slingers - the latter in open formation. These will advance to engage the enemy along with the Arab cavalry



The wings are a mixture of medium and light cavalry, along with the Sassanid inspired heavy cavalry -







These will advance along the wings as the enemy forces (oh dear a small unit of Sassanid levy spearmen - oops) move forward.





The main Jund spearmen will remain stationary to the rear and act as a rally point for the cavalry and the archers should they need it.



The General/phylarch will sit close to the infantry until it is time to exploit an opening.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Thank you. Now I have no legitimate reason to spam HAs and archers and light cav.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Cool! Can I do one on the composition of a late roman palatinae unit? Ill use FoR v1.2 but all their units are in IB

[juvenus]

maybe we should let SBH to complete the story with Arabs first...besides, everyone is familiar with Romans...

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

It's an open thread but I strongly advise that anyone who posts an army composition uses the following criteria:

20 stack
10,000 solidi
Cites in full (as much as possible!) the historical sources used to explain or debate the army composition

MMFA - as for a palatinae army, I wonder if 10,000 would stretch to allowing you to assemble such an army?

Is FoR Fall of Rome? I would advise posting in their forum if you are using their mod as a matter of courtesy!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well, yeah but the roman units are the same as the ones in IB, that's my Idea, ill just ask florin80 for permission, its an outdated version so hell probably say yes.

[julianus heraclius]

Well, yeah but the roman units are the same as the ones in IB, that's my Idea, ill just ask florin80 for permission, its an outdated version so hell probably say yes.

You may create some confusion becasue people seeing a FoR army in the IB forum may think IB roman armies look like that when they don't.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I can edit the unit sizes etc., florin has given me permission...

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Come on, make some guides.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

I wil be posting more details on the Arabs on Thursday! My pc has been off-line last week but now everything has been repaired. The post will detail an online match against JH using an Arab army.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

kk

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

There is very little hard historical information on the pre-Islamic Arab armies - we know with some certainty that Ammianus allows rhetoric to overpower his accuracy when talking about the Saraceni or Scenitae in his work but he does praise their skills and prowess in staving off the Goths after Adrianople. Zosimus praises their cavalry skills before that battle and lauds their ability to harass and decimate Gothic raiding parties.

Palmyra of course remains a great example of an Arab dominated pagan force in Syria and Arabia, and of course, the Romans and the Sassanids used Arab foederati extensively. The Church historians allude to devastating raids and battles by the Tanukh foederatii under Mavia to the extent that she destroys 2 Roman field armies under Julius, the Magister.

The battle array illustrated above then is the best example of an Arab force deployed in the field: strong on cavalry and archers, with a solid component of infantry who are primarily arrayed to hold a line as a bulwark so that the cavalry and archers can spring out and harass and break up an advancing enemy battle-formation.

I want to suggest that deploying an Arab 20-stack only really comes into its own when used alongside a stronger Sassanid or Roman army in a 2v2 player match.

Here, the Arab force re-deploys ahead and on the wings of the allied army and acts as many Arab armies did in this period - namely as a harassing and enveloping force. The Arabs under Julian before he broke his foedus with them were excellent in this role so much so that a later historian of the Sassanid empire - Taburi - lauded their contribution to the battle of Ctesiphon.

On its own, an Arab army must be deployed both carefully and impetuously - by that I mean, arraying it wisely against your opponent and also striking swiftly like the desert wind when a gap opens up!

Here is an example from a 1v1 match between JH and myself the other night:

JH fielded an accurate frontier Roman field army with the ranks filled with mostly limitanei missile troops and light cavalry - reinforced with a legion of the line and some heavy cavalry. A typical Roman comitatus thrown together to block an Arab incursion.

You would think that an Arab force would crumble before a late Roman force but lets see what happened as JH willingly played his troops against my Arabs so that I could illustrate how Arabs forces can easily best more disciplined troops.

Here in the first few shots you can see both armies arrayed against eachother - JH has adopted a tight defensive formation around a core of heavy infantry - wings supported by light cavalry of various types. The Arab force has deployed to the rear of the field of battle with light medium and heavy cavalry on the flanks and with masses of archers and a slinger reserve in the centre. 4 numeri of medium quality heavy infantry form the centre/rear line.









After an initial stand-off, my light and medium cavalry advance to contact his wings while I also advance the masses of archers to hold and stress his central line. Note I do not advance either my jund infantry or their support slingers.











The fighting on the wings is intense but not only do I best the Roman cavalry, I am also able to infiltrate his rear/flank on my right wing.







True to standard late Roman doctrine, JH (remember he is playing this way to help me illustrate!) advances to contact - Ammianus is a good read to see examples of Roman lines advancing to contact against Sassanid light cavalry and missile troops.







Watch the solid roman lines moving in tight formation as the Arab cavalry now envelop one entire wing and enfilade his ranks. The lure of my infantry pull his Roman legionaries ever forward to contact and now my fresh slingers come into play, further disordering his lines. The Arab archers have been brushed aside but this has allowed them to flank also.











With his cavalry routed off the field, JH charges to engage the Arab jund infantry and comes to halt momentarily against them - now the entire Arab medium and heavy cavalry ride in from the rear to shatter them. It is a total slaughter deep in an unnamed desert - much as Mavia annihilated 2 Roman field armies.







A classic example of an Arab deployment and envelopment - and an illustration of why an Arab army is able to hold its own on the RTW/BI online battlefield.

Of course, another opposing player may deploy differently and test the Arabs in an alien terrain!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

cool! + rep

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Good analysis.

speaking of which, is Mavia=Mu3awiyah?

now if your hardcore, I'd recommend using a tribal format, rather than Lakhmid format. so for 20 stacks, you should have perhaps 1 or 2 nomadic cavalry. the rest are evenly divided between archers, spear-men, and heavy infantry (who should be the smallest infantry component).

personally, I prefer a more compact formation; I organize my army into two corps, each with 10 units. when battle is impending, I tend to merge the two into one. it works like this:

1Xgeneral
1Xcataphract
2Xdawsar
1Xtribal auxiliary
2xspearmen
3xarchers.

just multiply by 2, and you get an army with:

2Xgenerals
2Xcataphract
4xdawsar
2xtribal auxiliary
4xspearmen
6xarchers.

sometimes, the fourth spear-man unit is replaced by a swordsman.

I'm hardcore, so I typically remove the bows from most of my horsemen, and replace them with a lance and sword. it makes things more interesting.

I rarely fight in the open, preferring to confine the enemy in a poor spot (deserts, bridges, "abattis terrain", downhill, etc). once the field armies are done for, I move for the cities.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Honestly i compose my field armies out of palatinae. its the easiest, as they're powerful. Usually a general, 1 legio, 6 auxilia, 2 foederati, 2 saggittari of some kind, 1 arcuballistae, 1 exploratores, 1 clibanarii, 2 promoti, 2 cataphractarii, and 2 various units, either huns or comitatenses

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Yes, it is Mavia, wife of an unnamed Tanukh phylarch (possibly Obedianus if you follow the Ammonii Monachii Relatio)

That's a good 20 stack composition there - I can see the attraction of fielding it - a 2v2 online match might be worth playing with 2 players using that combined Arab force to see how well they co-ordinate their play!

MMFA - please post your sources as we are trying to develop a Historical Army Composition thread here - not one which details what army stacks players use. The idea is to develop a resource so that players can field accurate armies mostly online against eachother rather than spamming through ignorance!

So - to recap: a 20 stack using 10,000 solidi, striving to field as accurately as possible an army from the faction in question.

That way when we fight online in Hamachi we will be fielding good historical armies and tactics.

If you want to discuss a Roman praesental army please list your sources and if possible provide screen shots - that way we can debate the compositions!

OK - I think the Arabs have been covered in some detail now - the next series of posts will open up discussion around the Germannic/Gothic factions and I will start over the weekend with the western more-infantry biased factions of the Saxons and the Franks!

Watch out for those throwing axes!!!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

MMFA - please post your sources as we are trying to develop a Historical Army Composition thread here - not one which details what army stacks players use. The idea is to develop a resource so that players can field accurate armies mostly online against eachother rather than spamming through ignorance!

So - to recap: a 20 stack using 10,000 solidi, striving to field as accurately as possible an army from the faction in question.

That way when we fight online in Hamachi we will be fielding good historical armies and tactics.

If you want to discuss a Roman praesental army please list your sources and if possible provide screen shots - that way we can debate the compositions!

Sorry, that's not what i was doing there, im not gonna put a roman praesental/palatinae army, im busy and my gaming computer is ****ed up