Troop morals: a bit too high?

[Juggernaut]

Am I the only person seeing some units, especially commanded by high star general, simply won't rout? Even militia units won't start to rout until they lose 70~80% of their men, and high class units like knights and mamluks simply fights to their death in many occasions. Is this intended to happen?

[Siddyus]

I think its normal for units under generals with high command stars to not rout too easily. Thats the very reason why they have command stars in the first place. And why you need a general in the army at all times. With just a captain. It would take me at least 5 units to rout a full stack army(during sieges of course) but yeah still a good chance to defeat any superior army without a head.

[ecclesian_knight]

I think its normal for units under generals with high command stars to not rout too easily. Thats the very reason why they have command stars in the first place. And why you need a general in the army at all times. With just a captain. It would take me at least 5 units to rout a full stack army(during sieges of course) but yeah still a good chance to defeat any superior army without a head.

yep, I totally agree Generals are there for the addition of morale.

without generals a full stack army is useless

[Paladin94610]

I think a full stack army must be commanded by a loyal and high chivalry/dread general. It is a great risk to let a captain lead a full stack force. And larger the army led by a single captain, greater the chance the army can desert. Back on the topic, a chain rout system seems too weird, and the command stars are definitely counterbalance.

[SirRobin]

I think it's good that morale has been increased, but I agree that it's a bit too high as it stands now. I fight rebels with 0-star generals and see their depleted and routed archer units coming back to fight with swords even late in the battles - and the crews of artillery standing there waiting to get killed after the rest of their comrades are long since over the hill.

If the morale is not reduced, it means there's little difference between a 5-star general and one with 9 stars - both their armies would be nearly unroutable ? (havent done tests on this)

[newt]

Generals get huge bonuses to troop morale based on campaign difficulty, and abbeys, minareted masjids and the buildings above these give units morale bonuses; more for each level of building.

[SirRobin]

Generals get huge bonuses to troop morale based on campaign difficulty, and abbeys, minareted masjids and the buildings above these give units morale bonuses; more for each level of building.

Really? I never heard of this - it doesn't say in the building descriptions. You mean units get a permanent morale boost if trained in a settlement with those buildings, or only get the bonus if defending a city with churches, mosques etc?

[SoulBlade]

Challenge lads. People are looking for a bigger challenge so modders do what they can.
Oh btw, what difficulty? VH? Then it's normal.

[Juggernaut]

I didn't know in SS that difficulty level gives moral boost to the AI. Maybe I'll just play in M/M next time.

Challenge lads. People are looking for a bigger challenge so modders do what they can.
Oh btw, what difficulty? VH? Then it's normal.

If the challenge means I'm going to lose large number of men regardless of the tactics I use because my enemy always fights to their death, I rather not have that kind of challenge. I don't have problem with top elite units commanded by high star general fighting to their death, but seeing regular knights commanded by mediocre general doing that just looks weird, and also annoying.

[krolyn]

Not possible. You can only give bonus when the unit is first trained.

Yes, and for why: to make it harder

I personally don't agree with this kind of bonus. it just unballances the game on the long run since, on certain conditions, lots of these bonus may occur and make what has already been described:
militia units under middle class generals fighting like high class and never routing.
Also, the abbey bonus on post 9 is not difficulty dependent, right? so even playing on M/M the AI gets some bonuses,

I prefer the game to simulate real conditions and have everybody with the same settings. The issue is on improving the AI bit by bit. I know it is very difficult but, as it has already been seen on some AI, it can be done. G5 has made some real improvements with his BAI...

The troops moral is pretty high but i makes sense. EX. If i was a soldier in Napoleaons Grand Armee and we were geting re asses kicked youd remember why you support Napolean : FOR FRANCE that little motivation tells you that france is imortal and will always live on, and tht she can't loose, this little bit of hope sends you to new hights feats of courage that nobody thought posible. 2nd EX like the crusades they pusshed onward for all of christendom!

I don't think so. Even fighting under great generals units wouldn't fight until the last man if given a chance to flee. If you're being massacred there's no way you'll keep fighting to certain death...

I didn't know in SS that difficulty level gives moral boost to the AI. Maybe I'll just play in M/M next time.

If the challenge means I'm going to lose large number of men regardless of the tactics I use because my enemy always fights to their death, I rather not have that kind of challenge. I don't have problem with top elite units commanded by high star general fighting to their death, but seeing regular knights commanded by mediocre general doing that just looks weird, and also annoying.

I again agree....

[newt]

I personally don't agree with this kind of bonus. it just unballances the game on the long run since, on certain conditions, lots of these bonus may occur and make what has already been described:
militia units under middle class generals fighting like high class and never routing.
Also, the abbey bonus on post 9 is not difficulty dependent, right? so even playing on M/M the AI gets some bonuses,

I prefer the game to simulate real conditions and have everybody with the same settings. The issue is on improving the AI bit by bit. I know it is very difficult but, as it has already been seen on some AI, it can be done. G5 has made some real improvements with his BAI...

I agree with you, I don't like seeing militia fight to the death, or super Generals destroying half an army. This mod is supposed to be based on reality, not fantasy.

M2 has been out for 4 years, so a lot of people get bored unless they have a challenge, and ai alone wont do it for them. The only way to challenge them is to make units never rout.

I suggest removing the bonuses yourself. I always do. I'm playing for the units, map and ai and to have fun, not to get frustrated and have a game that feels like work.

[nhinhonhinho]

I agree with you, I don't like seeing militia fight to the death, or super Generals destroying half an army. This mod is supposed to be based on reality, not fantasy.

M2 has been out for 4 years, so a lot of people get bored unless they have a challenge, and ai alone wont do it for them. The only way to challenge them is to make units never rout.

I suggest removing the bonuses yourself. I always do. I'm playing for the units, map and ai and to have fun, not to get frustrated and have a game that feels like work.

Year i agree. There are no way for the crappy spearman stand again the professional (or event elite) soldiers for too long and fight to the death . And general and his BG is a command and elite unit not panzer.

I rather to give AI a bunch of troop or money than increase their ATK,DEF and moral .

[krolyn]

@newt

That would be great!!! Is there any easy way to remove this bonuses? Are they all in the same files?
I cannot imagine going through all the 1'000 SS files!!

@nhinhonhinho
I guess you're right but only when it is controlled. Otherwise you'll end up with the AI getting thousands of florins and an ever-ending supply of troops.



G5 developed a script to improve the AI terrible financial abilities but I don't know if it is implemented in SS 6.3. The idea was:
- give money to the AI only when it is in debt in order for it to always have a minimum surplus of 50 or 100 florins.
- Drasticaly reduce buildings cost (like, to 5 florins)
- remove all money bonuses it has (kings purse and everything)

This way, when the AI is in debt (which is almost always), it cannot recruit new units but it still can improve its cities. With time, the AI will loose units and get the budget balanced again. I think it is generally a good idea! I would only make some armies to turn to rebels whenever it was in debt to speed up the budget balancing and make it more realistic.

[Tate]

I suggest removing the bonuses yourself. I always do. I'm playing for the units, map and ai and to have fun, not to get frustrated and have a game that feels like work.

This is probably a question for a different thread, but how do you do this? I would like to remove some of the "cheap" bonuses the AI gets but I have no idea what to look for and where to start.

[newt]

abbey city requires factions { denmark, teutonic_order, jerusalem, norway, hre, scotland, france, england, hungary, poland, venice, papal_states, portugal, spain, aragon, sicily, milan, }
{
capability
{
agent priest 0 requires factions { denmark, teutonic_order, jerusalem, norway, scotland, hre, france, england, }
agent priest 0 requires factions { hungary, poland, }
agent priest 0 requires factions { papal_states, portugal, spain, aragon, sicily, milan, venice, }
;recruit_pool "Dismounted Armored Clergy" 1 0.085 1 0 requires factions { denmark, norway, } and event_counter HALF_PLATE_ARMOR 1
happiness_bonus bonus 2
religion_level bonus 4
agent_limit priest 2
pope_disapproval 1
population_health_bonus bonus 1
recruits_morale_bonus bonus 1 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1

Any unit trained in a city with this building gets a permanent bonus. It goes to ALL units, not exclusive to Dismounted Armored Clergy.

The higher level buildings give more.

[krolyn]

Am I the only person seeing some units, especially commanded by high star general, simply won't rout? Even militia units won't start to rout until they lose 70~80% of their men, and high class units like knights and mamluks simply fights to their death in many occasions. Is this intended to happen?

I tottally agree!!!
High class units should have more morale due to training.
High star general should give a morale bonus to units.
Some buildings should give bonus but, I think, just when deffending the city.

But I think that in reality, even with all those extras, no super-trained unit commanded by the brightest general would stand and fight until death (if they had a chence to flee). It just doesn't make any sense...

I made some experiments with the RR/RC submod by halving the morale to all units in the game but I didn't noticed any drastic change. I guess there are lots of other things that balanced it.

One way could be bigger morale penalties when general killed, flanked, outnumbered, loosing men rapidly, or others. Nevertheless, I don't know if this can be scripted.

Challenge lads. People are looking for a bigger challenge so modders do what they can.
Oh btw, what difficulty? VH? Then it's normal.

I agree with you.
Always when this increased challenge is not by just giving the AI bonuses in everything

"recruits_morale_bonus bonus 1 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1"

does this line means that the bonus is just to the AI?? Why?

[newt]

I tottally agree!!!
High class units should have more morale due to training.
High star general should give a morale bonus to units.
Some buildings should give bonus but, I think, just when deffending the city.

Not possible. You can only give bonus when the unit is first trained.

does this line means that the bonus is just to the AI?? Why?

Yes, and for why: to make it harder

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Am I the only person seeing some units, especially commanded by high star general, simply won't rout? Even militia units won't start to rout until they lose 70~80% of their men, and high class units like knights and mamluks simply fights to their death in many occasions. Is this intended to happen?

The opposing general is always the 1st guy on my hit list after his archers, especially one with lots of stars...

[RabidSheepLegion]

I love the morale so far, forces you to bring a wide assortment of troops and strategy to win whether it be using naffatun,flaming ammo and charging home in early or pike and shot in late along with charging home once more

[hpsauce13]

Like alot of other people here (correct me please if im wrong) i dont mind the fact that high quality units do not route easily, and on occasion fight to the last man.

what i dont like is when a mediocre general (similar to mine) turns up with mostly militia battle line, which matches my militia line a fairly evenly, or is even slightly weaker than mine, and then proceeds to rout my entire line using only their militia, even when my knights are behind their line doing some damage, it makes no sense and is unbalanced