Attention All American People: The Fascists are taking over.

[MadKow]

I find interesting that conservative americans are very keen on pointing what they perceive as deviations from their strict concept of democracy or freedom in other countries, labelling them as "communists" or "Nazis" and yet fail to see the signs in their own backyard.

Here is an interesting article on the subject of emerging fascism in the USA. Before you start thinking of marching uniforms and goose walk, step back a little and consider the economics of fascist Italy and nazi Germany prior and during their own dark periods.
Read the article, otherwise don't bother commenting, as i am not going to quote it all here.

[Radier]

Edit: Nevermind

[PacSubCom]

This is what many Europeans (in their infinite historical wisdom) have pointed out for quite some time. That there are terrifying parallels.

But what these people tend to forget is that America cannot do wrong. America can make unfortunate mistakes, but only while carrying out benevolent intentions.

To suggest otherwise, like you do here by posting this anti-american drivel, is, frankly said, crazy. The US democracy is much too strong for such a development. You cannot really stand behind this article, support that kind of rhetoric, can you?

Okay, so let's imagine there are people who want to convert the US into some kind of Nazi state. That the alleged torture cases, the secret prisons, citizens snatched off the street and put into custody indefinitively, the patriot acts, an allegedly compliant press and the concentration of power and media in fewer and fewer private hands are just steps on the road to some form of fascism. But what about all those liberals, the Democrats, especially the liberal press? They would cry bloody murder, now would they? And the Republicans? There is nobody who loves freedom more, let me assure you. The real dangers to this society come from without. Haven't you noticed on September 11th? There are good American patriots who stand up for democracy and freedom, in Iraq, Afghanistan and all over the globe. And all what you do is driving wedges between us in a time of war for our very survival. Do you have what it takes to defend our freedom?

I must wonder what you real motivations to post this are, MadKow. What personal issues do you have with the most free society on this planet, the one which also happens to have invented modern democracy? Is it your leftist ideology? The whole article is anti-capitalism yadda yadda, where like every so often, the author doesn't acknowledge that all other systems have disastrously failed. He seems to long for state control of the economy, but conveniently doesn't mention that it is private entrepreneurship that pushes society, freedom and civilization forward. In essence, the very pillar on which the American democracy rests.

[MadKow]

My personal issues are very universal actually. I think the world can be a better place if the mistakes from the past are not repeated. My mind would be at peace if you were right, rest assured.
Unfortunately you fail to alnowledge the very point of the article, that unbridled private entrepeneurship leads to corporate totalitarism. That economic power takes over political power if let loose. That the combination of that and a state of national mobilization for a higher call against some "danger" is recipe for the worst. All united behind the War Leader... we have seen it all before.

The title was of course provocative and a bit of a reaction to a similar one crying "NAZI!!" for Britain.

[ajimenez3]

My personal issues are very universal actually. I think the world can be a better place if the mistakes from the past are not repeated. My mind would be at peace if you were right, rest assured.
Unfortunately you fail to alnowledge the very point of the article, that unbridled private entrepeneurship leads to corporate totalitarism. That economic power takes over political power if let loose. That the combination of that and a state of national mobilization for a higher call against some "danger" is recipe for the worst. All united behind the War Leader... we have seen it all before.

The title was of course provocative and a bit of a reaction to a similar one crying "NAZI!!" for Britain.

I think PacSubCom was trying to be sarcastic towards the people he thought would attack the article and your post.


Semper Fi
Arturo

[MadKow]

I think PacSubCom was trying to be sarcastic towards the people he thought would attack the article and your post.


Semper Fi
Arturo

At first i thought so but then in doubt i decided to clarify a bit. If that was the case i would say he did a very good job.

[Oldgamer]

They're not taking over in America. They'd like to. But not enough people will follow them. Even their sympathisers won't publicly do it, out of fear of the social sanction. Just try walking out of your house in Peoria with a swastika armband on your sleeve, and see how many people willingly talk to you, your wife, and your kids a week later.

[PacSubCom]

My personal issues are very universal actually. I think the world can be a better place if the mistakes from the past are not repeated. My mind would be at peace if you were right, rest assured.

But the mistakes will not be repeated. Can not be repeated. It was the Greatest Generation of the Greatest Nation, the noble US of A, which destroyed the danger of fascism in WW2 singlehandedly, a triumph for our perfect system, and fondly remembered history. Fascist is only the enemy.

You say you see rampant cronyism and corruption, unbridled militarism, obscene defense budgets, eternal war, hitlerization of enemies, strong public sensilbility for defeatist talk, nationalism, and aggressive warfare based on lies and fearmongering? Rest easily. All this is nothing but propaganda of the enemies of freedom. Or liberals, who are simply too dumb to understand what is at stake here. Or too ignorant to know what freedom really means: Economic opportunites for our hard working people. As I said before, this is the basis of society. This IS democracy. For how can freedom exist where the economy does not flourish? Now you say it's the seed of fascism? I laugh: LOL! The things you mention are not fascist, they are our weapons against fascism. In a time everybody else is weak and pathetic, WE are strong. WE at least try to make the world a better place, where freedom rings. What this canuck reporter doesn't understand it has to get worse before it gets better, and that we need to make sacrifices for Final Victory!

Now you say that Hitler came to power with the funding of monopoly businessmen like Thyssen? I guess you should go back to school: Hitlers movement was one of National Socialism. Everybody knows that socialism is one step from communism. That is why in the beginning, Stalin and Hitler were such great pals. Now do you really need an internet forum to tell you this?

Don't be confused by the propaganda. Fascism, that's waving swastikas, raised arms, mustached little guys in uniforms and Kleppercoats. With serious allegations like this, there are no gray areas. Now say yourself: Where do you find this? That's right, nowhere. Such behaviour would be laughed off the street. And rightly so.

In earnest: Hitler's ideology was Lebensraum im Osten. Now where do you find this in current times? Calm down, and shut up. We can't stand such childish alarmism. If you are not with us, you are against us, #o wa'ch ou' wha' +ou #ay!

[Darkragnar]

LOL brilliantly put together
i coudent agree with the article more.

This is what many Europeans (in their infinite historical wisdom) have pointed out for quite some time. That there are terrifying parallels.

But what these people tend to forget is that America cannot do wrong. America can make unfortunate mistakes, but only while carrying out benevolent intentions.

To suggest otherwise, like you do here by posting this anti-american drivel, is, frankly said, crazy. The US democracy is much too strong for such a development. You cannot really stand behind this article, support that kind of rhetoric, can you?

Okay, so let's imagine there are people who want to convert the US into some kind of Nazi state. That the alleged torture cases, the secret prisons, citizens snatched off the street and put into custody indefinitively, the patriot acts, an allegedly compliant press and the concentration of power and media in fewer and fewer private hands are just steps on the road to some form of fascism. But what about all those liberals, the Democrats, especially the liberal press? They would cry bloody murder, now would they? And the Republicans? There is nobody who loves freedom more, let me assure you. The real dangers to this society come from without. Haven't you noticed on September 11th? There are good American patriots who stand up for democracy and freedom, in Iraq, Afghanistan and all over the globe. And all what you do is driving wedges between us in a time of war for our very survival. Do you have what it takes to defend our freedom?

I must wonder what you real motivations to post this are, MadKow. What personal issues do you have with the most free society on this planet, the one which also happens to have invented modern democracy? Is it your leftist ideology? The whole article is anti-capitalism yadda yadda, where like every so often, the author doesn't acknowledge that all other systems have disastrously failed. He seems to long for state control of the economy, but conveniently doesn't mention that it is private entrepreneurship that pushes society, freedom and civilization forward. In essence, the very pillar on which the American democracy rests.

[Ummon]

I thought it was America cannot do right... :wink:

[Lord Kal]

All fascism does not look like Adolf Hitler. Mussolinin is a far beter example - the path he took and the path America is taking are so similar... to quote him, "The first stage of fascism should be called corporatism". Look at the paths America and Italy are taking, they're almost identical.

[Ummon]

All fascism does not look like Adolf Hitler. Mussolinin is a far beter example - the path he took and the path America is taking are so similar... to quote him, "The first stage of fascism should be called corporatism". Look at the paths America and Italy are taking, they're almost identical.

This post shows, sadly, how your knowledge of history is very limited. Mussolini was surely not a great theorist of anything, in the first place.

Second, corporativism in the fascist sense, is a monocentric system of "super labor unions/productive associations" turned into statal apparatus.

[Erik]

I fully agree with the article.

If big corporations get more and more powerfull, like they have been, them America wil end up as a fascist state.

Today big corporations already fund the elections.
Only candidates who support big corporations have a realistic chance of getting elected.
In return those candidates wil only make big corporations stronger, so they can influence politics even more in the future.

It's sad Americans can't see this.
They are so convinced laissez-faire economy wil bring them freedom that they can't see big corporations can restrict their freedom much more than their government ever can.

The only thing we learned from history is that people never learn from history.

[Prince Kassad]

Attention All American People: The Fascists are taking over

Madkow, I hope you are aware that my title was a joke to get people's attention.

[MadKow]

Unfortunately mine wasn't, but the purpose was the same.

[Prince Kassad]

So, according to this article, Mussolini and Hitler were capitalist cronies of the corporations?

If they were, they did a great job of hiding it - the Nazis were called the German National Socialist Party.

If Mussolini and friends liked big corporations, they certainly had an odd way of showing it: taking over the major institutions in Italy and putting them under government control.

Have you heard the Italian Fascist saying "The trains run on time"? This was a justification for the government control over the society: it somehow worked "better" now that the gov. bureaucrats were running it.

[Erik]

So, according to this article, Mussolini and Hitler were capitalist cronies of the corporations?

If they were, they did a great job of hiding it - the Nazis were called the German National Socialist Party.

They were masters of manipulation and propaganda, I thought this was common sense by mow.

from the article:

Ironically, Hitler pandered to the middle class, and they provided some of his most enthusiastically violent supporters. The fact that he did this while simultaneously destroying them was a terrible achievement of Nazi propaganda.

Hitler also destroyed organized labour by making strikes illegal. Notwithstanding the socialist terms in which he appealed to the masses, Hitler's labour policy was the dream come true of the industrial cartels that supported him. Nazi law gave total control over wages and working conditions to the employer.

If Mussolini and friends liked big corporations, they certainly had an odd way of showing it: taking over the major institutions in Italy and putting them under government control.

The big corporations took over the government.
And institutions that opposed these big corporations were banned or taken over by the corporate-controlled government.
This is how fascism works.

---

edit:
OMG, PacSubCom, it aren't just being sarcastic, are you?
We can only hope not many Americans share your views because with people like you I am surprised America hasn't become fascist a long time ago.

[Prince Kassad]

They were masters of manipulation and propaganda, I thought this was common sense by mow.

from the article:

You just pointed out the fallacy of socialism: you give power to the government - they won't use it to help you, they'll just use it to give themselves more power. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

The big corporations took over the government.
And institutions that opposed these big corporations were banned or taken over by the corporate-controlled government.
This is how fascism works.

Let me get this straight - Mussolini seized these industries and put his own guys in charge of the new cartels, screwing everybody who used to own them. Tell me how this is supposed to benefit the original corporations again?

[Erik]

You just pointed out the fallacy of socialism: you give power to the government - they won't use it to help you, they'll just use it to give themselves more power. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

The thing is:
If you give the power to big corporations they wil also take over the government.
So it's a matter of ballance: the government must restrict corporations so they can't turn into powerfull monopolies, but the government shouldn't become to powerfull either.

Modern Socialism (don't confuse it with communism) does exactly this.

Let me get this straight - Mussolini seized these industries and put his own guys in charge of the new cartels, screwing everybody who used to own them. Tell me how this is supposed to benefit the original corporations again?

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't his "own men" also the owners of some of the big corporations?
I think all he did was seize the competition and give it to his friends.

[Prince Kassad]

The thing is:
If you give the power to big corporations they wil also take over the government.
So it's a matter of ballance: the government must restrict corporations so they can't turn into powerfull monopolies, but the government shouldn't become to powerfull either.

Modern Socialism (don't confuse it with communism) does exactly this.

But these are only the first few steps of socialism. The redistribution of wealth and confiscation of private property are still key parts of socialism, are they not?

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't his "own men" also the owners of some of the big corporations?

And don't tell me many of the socialists' supporters aren't powerful and rich people too?

I think all he did was seize the competition and give it to his friends.

But socialism also does this, does it not? Seize the wealth from the wealthy and the middle class to make your poor supporters happy. Of course its not your poor supporters that get the money, but the powerful people using their resources to back you. Both sides of the spectrum do this, so don't try to blame it all on one side.