Elephant inconsistancy

[Turtle Hammer]

Ok, I'm not sure if I'm missing something obvious, but is there a trick to killing them with javelins? In the start of a Makedonia campaign, Epieros attacks Pella, and I positioned my slingers and javelin armed troops so that they'd be able to shoot the elephants. Seemingly one volley of javelins killed about two thirds of the elephants and they ran amok while I shot the rest of their army. I thought this was just luck, but then inside a few turns they attacked again, with more elephants. Same deal. This lead me to believe elephants were suprisingly vulnerable to javelin armed infantry.

But, attacking the Indian cities as Baktria, and remembering this, I took plenty of javelin armed troops only to find their elephants seemed javelin proof. They weren't the armoured sort either, just good old fashioned naked elephants. Naked elephants walking all over my javelin armed troops who, in other circumstances, did a serious number on the elephants.

Later in this Baktrian campaign, I used elephants myself, and so far I've lost just one elephant in several battles, and I've not been coddling them and keeping them safe. They've been stomping through things like phalanxes and Pahlavan bodyguards and scaring off a lot of enemy troops for me. I'm very happy with my elephants in fact.

But what happened that first times? Which circumstance is "normal"? I rarely use elephants as they're expensive, but I gave in in the end becase, well, they're elephants dammit. And aside from the ones it starts with the AI rarely fields them as far as I've seen. What's the deal guys?

[Boriak]

What was the difficulty you were playing on?

[athanaric]

But, attacking the Indian cities as Baktria, and remembering this, I took plenty of javelin armed troops only to find their elephants seemed javelin proof. They weren't the armoured sort either, just good old fashioned naked elephants. Naked elephants walking all over my javelin armed troops who, in other circumstances, did a serious number on the elephants.

That happens sometimes. It means you need more javelins. Place javelin troops on the walls (if there are any) and rain death from above. Bring mounted skirmishers (Dahae or Arachosians). They have an insane amount of ammo (14 javelins per rider - as opposed to Akontistai etc. who only have 6)* and are fast enough to run away. Javelins are still the most effective counter to elephants by far.


* It's only three units that have that many javelins though. Dahae, Arachosians, and Cantabrian Cavalry.

[Rahwana]

your javelinmen's volley is missing the elephants, so they don't die

[athanaric]

your javelinmen's volley is missing the elephants, so they don't die

ECM Elephants

[Turtle Hammer]

I thought more might be necessary, but defending Pella I had just the one unit, and it didn't take all of their volleys to do the damage either. And in India I had about three units. The difficulty was the same too, I may have to do some testing in custom battle to get to the bottom of this.

[XSamatan]

I am not sure IIRC, but aren't the elephants in the Indus valley way more experienced than the ones Epeirus starts with? Experience in RTW screws up any balance...

[athanaric]

I am not sure IIRC, but aren't the elephants in the Indus valley way more experienced than the ones Epeirus starts with? Experience in RTW screws up any balance...

Experience and difficulty level don't do squat against missiles. They only count in melee. Then again, Elephants can be killed by lancer rear charges (even works when pursuing fleeing elephants with AP lancers, although this is risky with FMs, since dying elephants will crash on top of your horsies).

[Knonfoda]

I think you also need to consider that your initial skirmishes your skirmishers were on walls, on an elevated position with a better firing arc, whereas in battles you are on the same level as your targets.

[postm00v]

I think you also need to consider that your initial skirmishes your skirmishers were on walls, on an elevated position with a better firing arc, whereas in battles you are on the same level as your targets.

This.
Allthough I find it odd that nobody mentioned this before.

[Dargaron]

I think you also need to consider that your initial skirmishes your skirmishers were on walls, on an elevated position with a better firing arc, whereas in battles you are on the same level as your targets.

Actually, Pella starts with a palisade, so his skirmishers were on the same level as the elephants.

[Turtle Hammer]

Actually, Pella starts with a palisade, so his skirmishers were on the same level as the elephants.

Yeah, although because they're throwing over the walls, rather than "normally", I guess maybe the trakectory is still altered. I'm gonna fire up custom battles to get to the bottom of this when I get home later. To be continued!

[Rahwana]

Yeah, although because they're throwing over the walls, rather than "normally", I guess maybe the trakectory is still altered. I'm gonna fire up custom battles to get to the bottom of this when I get home later. To be continued!

confirmed.... throwing javelins over the walls seemed to be less effective on elephants

[Turtle Hammer]

confirmed.... throwing javelins over the walls seemed to be less effective on elephants

But that's what I found more effective. I'm firing up custom battle right now, more later!

[Turtle Hammer]

Right, here's what I found: Skirmishers kill elephants dead. Helenic skirmishers like I used at Pella, or Heavy Peltasts, like I used in India. The difference in India was all down to three chevrons of experience. Adding three chevrons of experience to the 'nellies far fewer died. With no experience, even basic skirmishers can kill enough of them to make them rout or go mental. But add three experience, like the ones in India, and it's a different playing field.

Apparently, at experience 3, elephants become agile enough to dodge javelins? Either way, that experience of the elephants is what made them super gnarly, I'm also going to assume that's why mine did such a good job of surviving. I sort of assumed that they'd be as vulnerable to javelins with three chevrons as with none, as missile attacks negate defence skill.

Edit: Also, removing walls from the equation did indeed increase the skirmishers effectiveness, the reason I thought otherwise was because the ones I fought in India were in the open and stamped all over my skirmishers.

[bleach]

Apparently, at experience 3, elephants become agile enough to dodge javelins? Either way, that experience of the elephants is what made them super gnarly, I'm also going to assume that's why mine did such a good job of surviving. I sort of assumed that they'd be as vulnerable to javelins with three chevrons as with none, as missile attacks negate defence skill.

Perhaps the issue is not the damage inflicted but morale of the elephant. Inexperienced elephants will freak out more quickly when they are stabbed by a jav, even if the wound is non-lethal (don't they all have multiple hp?) while the better trained/battle-hardened elephants just take it the pain and walk all over your puny skirmishers.

[Turtle Hammer]

Perhaps the issue is not the damage inflicted but morale of the elephant. Inexperienced elephants will freak out more quickly when they are stabbed by a jav, even if the wound is non-lethal (don't they all have multiple hp?) while the better trained/battle-hardened elephants just take it the pain and walk all over your puny skirmishers.

That's a good point, and skirmishers do indeed look very puny when launched skywards by an angry hephalump.

[Magic Man]

Finally recruited some Ellies in my Roman Campaign.


Gotta ship them to Britain.


OH YOUR CHARIOTS ARE SUCH GREAT LINE BREAKERS, THESE ARE CALLED ELEPHANTS.

HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW, CASSE?!

HMMMM?! HOW DO YOU LIKE ME?!

[athanaric]

Finally recruited some Ellies in my Roman Campaign.


Gotta ship them to Britain.

Be careful though when going directly against chariots. They have javelins, and javelins are the #1 elephant killers in this game. Apart from that, the engine might decide that your pachyderms count as cavalry and will thus be run over by chariots (...).
It's better to fight chariots with infantry. They die like flies when engaged by decent line infantry, and the Romans have plenty of that.

In short, ellies aren't as good in Britain as they are in Greece. Mainly because every Briton has a javelin to lob.

[Magic Man]

Ill admit that the main reason i want to take Elephants to Britain is because of that vague reference to Claudius doing the same.

I think it was in Tacitus' writings.