Experienced rebels

[win7]

Hi I'am playing RTW(RTR now) from ages, but I allways was curious and a bit frustrated about city rebels being so experienced (8 experience??) I never found a resonable answer for that, cose how thats possible that a bunch of peasants,city guards,basket weavers and smiths are so experienced (or even more) as my core army that fought for years in northern africa. I allways found this frustrating and unresonable.

Do u think it is sensible?? and is there a way to repair that? however if anyone prove me a point in that I will accept it and carry on playing without frustration

[Brusilov]

First of all welcome to the forum.

Having highly experienced armies appear in a settlement has always been the way with RTW and mods. Think of it as a punishment for someone allowing the settlement to rebel in the first place. The reason that peasants appear rather than other units it probably caused by the buildings in the settlement. If it had upgraded baracks then I'm fairly sure that the peasants would be replaced by other units.

I would not expect the garrison of a settlement to start out simply with peasants, but then I've not played vanilla RTW for a very long time. In most mods you will probably find units in the settlement that your faction cannot recruit or retrain until the government and baracks buildings are upgraded at least one level.

[win7]

ok, I see that type of rebel army depends on barracs and smith lvl in my setllement, so I can understand that in developed city rebels may be well equiped but still I cant accept that they are so experienced, cose where did they get this experience?? I gues not in the barracks ;p and I dont think its historicaly accurate as in my imagination rebel army is more like lots,lots of people with no proper gear and experience (with some excpetions, e.g spartakus army of gladiators).

Grrr I'm rly in quite unconfortable situation cose I cant move my core army from africa and the rebel army is full of tracian heavy infantry with full experience (sigh, even with no experience they may be a serious match for regular hoplite) moreover they moved from the city and I can't begine the siege to starve them to death

[Om noml]

I know what you mean. I was playing as....someone, but anyways it was on BI, I took Athens, which then revolted soon after. The army? One full stack of 9 experience peasants. Use archers to cut them down, as experience modifies the defense stat, which does not resist missile fire. Do not engage them at any cost.

[shikaka]

Guys, those are the guys retired from military service, who picked up the swords once again!

(it is annoying)

[Brusilov]

The experience of the units in the settlement and the armour and weapon upgrades does not (I think) have anything to do with a smith int he settlement - it's just the way that the RTW engine works. I'm fairly sure that if the settlement that rebels has a high level baracks then it won't just be peasants that you face.

The other thing that can happen in-game is that some players are too lazy to run a settlement properly - their solution is to allow the settlement to rebel and then re-take it with a superior army. Maybe CA incliuded the feature of highly experienced units to make that process harder?

[shikaka]

The other thing that can happen in-game is that some players are too lazy to run a settlement properly - their solution is to allow the settlement to rebel and then re-take it with a superior army. Maybe CA incliuded the feature of highly experienced units to make that process harder?

Not that you have any chance to keep for example Siracuse from rebelling as any barbarian...


Also, even if you know the principles of city planning, you might find yourself unable to keep the city at the wanted pop level.
Like 9000 population as a barbarian. There are very few cities in the game which will not pass 3% pop growth when 3 levels of markets and ports are in place. Even worse if the AI had built farms already...

[MortenJessen]

Hi there.
Well, my guess is, that CA made rebels so highly experienced because that is the only way they could reflect a real rebellion. Rebels has just overtrown their old masters, and are now highly motivated to stay free. A free and motivated bastard, is more dangerous than an idle slave, or a well equipped army of disiplined and well paid veterans (just ask any old Marine who served in the Nam). Hence the high experience levels of rebels. They have a world to gain, only death to win....
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[shikaka]

A free and motivated bastard, is more dangerous than an idle slave, or a well equipped army of disiplined and well paid veterans (just ask any old Marine who served in the Nam).

This is not really true. Almost always the well-trained veterans win against 'motivated civilians'.
The majority of rebellions are not even mentioned in history, and the majority of those which are actually known ended in rebel loss.

When they have discipline, leadership and training next to their motivation, that might work. (Mao's men in China or the hussites in the 15th century)


Marines in Nam:
the Viet army under Giáp was very well trained. Maybe not in general, but for jungle warfare, it was better then the US army. Giáp's amry has beaten the chinese (1979), french and americans...

[MortenJessen]

Hi there.

This is not really true. Almost always the well-trained veterans win against 'motivated civilians'.

Yes they do. Well, no not really. Counter force, prize and casualties, the rebels always takes a greater toll at an army, than an opposing "regular" army. Why? They have a world to gain, only death to win. And a lot of other reasons too.

The majority of rebellions are not even mentioned in history, and the majority of those which are actually known ended in rebel loss.

Well, almost all changes in society trough out history, has been made because leaders where/are afraid of their people, so the very thought of a rebellion has made rebellions a very succesfull weapon. No rebellion ends in a complete political defeat.

When they have discipline, leadership and training next to their motivation, that might work. (Mao's men in China or the hussites in the 15th century)

Well, all I need to remember is America, France, Russia, Mexico, GB, Denmark, Germany....and so on. The list of examples are endless. And by no means where they all lead by smart men and brave leaders. But it worked out for the better. Remember, not all rebellions has to be military ones.

Marines in Nam:
the Viet army under Giáp was very well trained. Maybe not in general, but for jungle warfare, it was better then the US army. Giáp's amry has beaten the chinese (1979), french and americans...

Well trained ....they where the rabble of the earth, peasants and pressed citizens. Beaten into submission, brainwashed and sent against the Americans. And no intelligent person ever served in Viet Cong. They learned yes, and adapted (strange, as the pupils over come the masters here), and they lost. But hey, they are still free.

The very prize is what determines succes or defeat. Spartacus and his men lost the war, but they had by then already won. Why? They have a world to gain, only death to win...
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[shikaka]

Well, all I need to remember is America, France, Russia, Mexico, GB, Denmark, Germany....and so on. The list of examples are endless. And by no means where they all lead by smart men and brave leaders. But it worked out for the better. Remember, not all rebellions has to be military ones.

Sorry, until this time, we were talking about free motivated civilians.

I know that the american, soviet, etc revolution was successful, but both had support from at least part of the army, with skilled commanders. Also in France, Germany too...


A rebellion, especially middle ages or earlier, organised and carried out by civilians and/or serfs, nearly always failed.

The rebellion of the wealthy barons of course has a much bigger chance to be successful.

Well trained ....they where the rabble of the earth, peasants and pressed citizens. Beaten into submission, brainwashed and sent against the Americans. And no intelligent person ever served in Viet Cong. They learned yes, and adapted (strange, as the pupils over come the masters here), and they lost. But hey, they are still free.

I was not talking about the Viet Cong, but about Vő Nguyén Giáp's army!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vo_Nguyen_Giap

And they didn't lost, they conquered south Vietnam...