View Poll Results: Would you like to see a New High Elven Bodygaurd?

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  • Yes, a different look for the bodyguard would be ideal, current models could be a new unit

    69 75.00%
  • No, the current Nobles are what the High Elven Bodyguard should look like

    23 25.00%
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  1. #1
    Everto's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default New High Elven Bodyguard

    The following topic is for the sake of seeing how many people would like to see the High Elven Noble's have different skins. Now before one comes to hasty conclusions and finds this to be another dumb poll that should be relocated into sub-forums, hear out the following idea.

    The High Elven Nobles, as they are, do not fit the standard model of the Eldar Army; they are complete replicas of the Warriors of Mithlond. Now the point isn't to say that the current skins of the Warriors of Mithlond are all in all not befitting of the High Elven army, but I would argue that the High Elven Nobles should not be duplicates of an AOR unit from Mithlond. The Warriors of Mithlond are, aesthetically, a unit that resembles a ceremonious parade garb. They are dressed in miss-matched garments, with a rainbow full of colors, and a complete lack of uniformity.
    Their shields are splendid, but again, they are not uniformed, the armor is elegant, but some of them are wearing purple tunics over their armor, which again, I find to be detrimental in its lack of uniformity. The Unit is simply to colorful for a High Elven Bodygaurd Unit. I believe as much as the next person that they should look prestigious and splendid, I simply don't believe that this particular skin is the right one for the job.

    Now, arguably, this is fine for warriors that hail from an area of Middle Earth that has not had much need for a standing professional army. Their Elite Status and fighting skills can be attributed to their immortality and longevity, which means that they probably fought in conflicts gone by, and are wearing such garments because of the fact that they have lived secluded from the outside world because of their geographic location. They are veterans, they are elite, ok, I get it, but by no means do I believe that the High Elven Nobles, across the board, should be wearing the same armor as the Warriors of Mithlond. It simply, logistically, doesn't make sense, seeing as Nobles don't only come from Mithlond, they are all over Lindon and many of them reside in Imladris, and don't necessarily wear the clothing of "Mithlond Warriors".

    I propose that the skins of mounted Mithlond Warriors don't be wasted, for they are a creative and bold design, but instead that the current High Elven Noble skin become an AOR unit, just like the Mithlond warriors, under any number of different names, such as; Mithlond Lancers, Knights of Lindon, Mithlond Nobles… or any combination of that.
    By doing this, the High Elven roster gains an additional Heavy Cavalry Unit (which certain people wished to see come to fruition) that is region specific and Elite, creating a further incentive to develop Mithlond's Military capabilities down the road, with a late game heavy cav unit.

    The High Elven Nobles should be adorned in armor and clothing that is similar to that of the bulk of their Army, albeit "slightly" more lavish. Elves are the embodiment of harmony and efficiency, and in the military as in everything else, they practice those two principles to perfection. In a sense they are like the Roman Legions, the crème de la crème of their day and age; a representation of Elite military organization and armament. The reason I'm mentioning the Roman military is because the legions were armed and clothed like an army of clones, "harmony" and "efficiency", with their commanding officers and their bodyguards wearing very similar armor to that of the Legions.
    This aspect is something that draws me aesthetically to the High Elven military, and ever since I saw the epic first five minutes of "The Fellowship of the Ring", and the battle under Mount Doom, I have dreamt of the day that a game, (or mod) such as this one, will exist, and when I can command the GOLDEN LEGIONS of the immortal elves.
    First of, I believe that the High Elven Nobles should (if at all) wear the same helmets as the rest of the army; key point being, cohesion.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    A good example of this cohesion are the Units of the Sylvan Elves, which Bodyguard or not, share the same Armor and design, and due to something as slight as the color of their cloaks, can embody Elite alongside the regular soldiers. I believe that the Sindar Archers are fantastic as a Bodygiard unit, and wish that something similar can be accomplished with the High Elven Bodygaurds.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    There are numerous possibilities with the actual look of the High Elven Nobles, but one that I have found particularly appealing is that of the concept art made by WETA of Gil-galad.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The overall look and design is superb. It's sleek, elegant, and not overdone and flashy. Notice that the figure is indeed not wearing a helmet, but a simple Eldar helm would do, or even no helmet possibly. I understand that there is the argument that the movies don't have everything right, that they are not truly lore specific or what not in every respect; the movies have created a vast majority of what this entire mod is based of off. The Elite units of Gondor, the armies of both Elven factions and much much more are based on the incredible work and designs of WETA. A vast majority of people, myself included, wanted to be able to have the armies that we saw on the big screen at our finger tips, and this mod brings those designs to life. That is why I believe that this design of Gil-galad would fit in perfectly into the look and design of the existing Noldorin army.
    They stand out from the common ranks and the Eldar Lancers because of their blue embroidered cloth, and the slight differences in Armor decoration. Also, very importantly, I believe that the shield design (which is used actually in the Mithlond Warrior skins) from Gil-galad should also be incorporated, because it likewise would help this New High Elven Bodygaurd Stand out as "ELITE".
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Another possibility are these "Kinslayer" Skins, which could be incorporated with the shield that Gil-galad and the Warriors of Mithlond wear, albeit a little darker. Honestly, I believe that the Gil-galad model is perfect for the High Elven Bodyguard/Nobles, but it never hurts to put an idea out there since we're on the topic. Mounted, obviously, the slight differentiation in color made me take this design into consideration, seeing as the design of the Unit was similar to that of the Eldar Units, but had something a little different about it. Honestly such a unit may look to similar to the Eldar Lancers, but if anyone would be willing to make a design, it'd be worthwhile to see.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    As aforementioned, I believe that the mounted Mithlond Warrior skins should be kept, albeit as a Noble Mithlond Cavalry Unit. The Bodygaurd unit of the High Elves should be cohesive in design with the majority of the Army, and the Gil-Galad design would be the most obvious and well polished choice. The exquisite shield alongside the finely detailed cloth designs would create that perfect "Look" that would fit perfectly into the ranks of the Eldar Army and this mod.

    On a side note, when it comes to the name, I find that "Eldar Bodygaurd" could work just as well as "Elven Nobles", or perhaps "Eldar Nobles". Food for thought

    I believe that this should be a mounted unit by all means, and perhaps all white steeds to show how "pure" they are. The way the movies portrayed Elves and their steeds was, as far as I could see, across the board completely white. In all honesty, I find that aesthetically it fits very well, and should be taken into consideration quite strongly seeing as the rider is only half of the entire unit, the steed itself also is an artistic touch of the design.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    So there are my arguments, feel free to comment, give your feedback, and I'd love to see what people think, and if people find that they like the ideas I've presented here. Thanks for your time.
    Last edited by Everto; August 31, 2010 at 12:43 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Good proposition.

    The pictures remind me though of how ugly Hugo Weaving is and how clinically unable PJ's team was at following instructions from the book...

  3. #3
    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Good proposition.

    The pictures remind me though of how ugly Hugo Weaving is and how clinically unable PJ's team was at following instructions from the book...
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  4. #4
    Vaul's Avatar Miles
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    Default

    Aye

    I've had a couple of similar topics myself, and here's a gallery from an artist that I hope will inspire future high elven aesthetic improvisation Sure it's not contemporary third age stuff, but not everything has to be... If anything, enjoy the art

    http://www.luisbejarano.com/tolkien/...anoldor.html#1

    and a picture that is form the same artist but not in the gallery...

    http://www.wildfiregames.com/~graphics/noldor/soldado.jpg
    Last edited by Jean=A=Luc; August 31, 2010 at 07:39 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    Aye

    I've had a couple of similar topics myself, and here's a gallery from an artist that I hope will inspire future high elven aesthetic improvisation Sure it's not contemporary third age stuff, but not everything has to be... If anything, enjoy the art

    http://www.luisbejarano.com/tolkien/...anoldor.html#1

    and a picture that is form the same artist but not in the gallery...

    http://www.wildfiregames.com/~graphics/noldor/soldado.jpg

    Excelent informacion,here is their best look in present battalions
    +this elven arrmor

  6. #6

    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Good proposition.

    The pictures remind me though of how ugly Hugo Weaving is and how clinically unable PJ's team was at following instructions from the book...
    This is not Hugo weaving. Hugo was featuring Elrond. This is Gil Galad Photo, Lord of High Elfs in middle earth before he died at same battle than Earendil, at mount of Doom in 2nd Age (intro of lord of the rings, the fellowship, movie). After that Elrond was the Lord of the High elfs in the middle earth. Elrond was featured in this battle with a similar armour but only with a 2 handed sword, without shield.

    Migobus
    Last edited by migobus; September 02, 2010 at 06:26 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Nice plesent thread.

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  8. #8
    Everto's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Im glad to see that as far, the vast majority of votes shares my point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    Aye
    I've had a couple of similar topics myself, and here's a gallery from an artist that I hope will inspire future high elven aesthetic improvisation Sure it's not contemporary third age stuff, but not everything has to be... If anything, enjoy the art
    Nice to see you again Vaul, this artwork has always been something that I've found as a great visual model for future ideas, but for the topic at hand of the High Elven Bodygaurds, I don't think it resembles the fullest potential of what could be done. I believe as you do though that the artistic vision of this guy should be somehow transformed into a new Unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by son of romans View Post
    Excelent informacion,here is their best look in present battalions
    +this elven arrmor
    I agree that, AT PRESENT, this is the best looking design, but I find that the Armor of the Archers is too... well basic in comparison with the Eldar Army. I stand strongly behind my position that the Gil-galad model would be the best choice for a new High Elven Bodygaurd Unit, simply because of its parallel in design with that of the rest of the army.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deedlit View Post
    Nice plesent thread.
    Thanks Deedlit, I wished to make this a civil discussion where useless bashing of others work doesn't overshadow the goal of the discussion, that simply doesn't get us anywhere

    I hope that as more votes are cast, people from "UP HIGH" will notice the significant cry for reform and take the points presented under consideration for the next update. (or possibly a submod, would love to see if anyone would mod the Gil-galad esque unit that I proposed. I would have done it a long time ago myself, but my modding skills are near non-existant )

  9. #9
    el Cid's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    This also buggered me a while back and I made a new bodyguard, the Eldar bodyguard. Basically just Eldar cavalry with new stats and such. I made the former Elven nobles into another unit.

  10. #10
    Everto's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by el Cid View Post
    This also buggered me a while back and I made a new bodyguard, the Eldar bodyguard. Basically just Eldar cavalry with new stats and such. I made the former Elven nobles into another unit.
    Could you by any chance show how you achieved the Eldar Bodygaurd? I know its probably a simple maneuver, but Id like to implement such a minor change into the game as it is, it means that much to me

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    Those blue ones are way cooler than "movie" golden Elves.
    I agree that they look fantastic and should be implemented as a unit, but imho they're not Bodygaurd Material. This artist created a design that is also "Bodygaurd Esque" of a rider, but I still stand by the Gil-galad WETA design. One may say that the movie design isn't "cool", (though i think its awesome), the truth is that the designs from the movie are the Eldar skins, and since they are the predominant portion of the late High Elven military, the HE bodygaurd should be based on a design similar to that of the rest of the forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby Killa View Post
    I'd love to see a unit that truly emphasizes the fact that the elven bodyguards have been training for centuries to protect one person, with the armor following suit.
    I hear ya Kirby Killa...
    Last edited by Everto; August 31, 2010 at 12:11 PM.

  11. #11
    el Cid's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by Everto View Post
    Could you by any chance show how you achieved the Eldar Bodygaurd? I know its probably a simple maneuver, but Id like to implement such a minor change into the game as it is, it means that much to me
    Well I'd like to, but since it was in a previous version of TATW I can't.

  12. #12
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Those blue ones are way cooler than "movie" golden Elves.


  13. #13

    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    I'd love to see a unit that truly emphasizes the fact that the elven bodyguards have been training for centuries to protect one person, with the armor following suit.

  14. #14
    Vaul's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby Killa View Post
    I'd love to see a unit that truly emphasizes the fact that the elven bodyguards have been training for centuries to protect one person, with the armor following suit.
    However, the name of the unit being "Nobles", I don't think we can consider the bodyguard units as actual bodyguards... Rather nobles who ride with the general, as it were, noble sons sent to hone their own command and warrior kills from someone experienced and with authority... It wasn't unlike medieval nobles of great stature (for instance dukes) to ride alongside military commanders of lower noble rank, and effectively act as the general's bodyguard (as they would no doubt fight any enemy who got close anyway, while not themselves having orders to join the battle with the rest of the army, but rather staying close to the general), but not being bodyguards professionally...

    I prefer this idea of the Elven Nobles, effectively they are bodyguards, but they are not trained as professional bodyguards for centuries, which would imply uniformity inside the unit. On that note, and "on topic", I don't mind the the Nobles having several variations of armor amongst them, which can be based on some regional differences in noble military attire.

    I do, however, agree with Everto that the current look of the Noble elves riding into battle does not correspond to that what we already know about elven military equipment tradition... I've written about this in my aforementioned topics, of which Everto is probably aware, so I'm not going into detail here, but rather the fine point of it - in the movies (and it is a primary visual source of lore for this mod) we see the high elf army holding uniformity in high value with regards to their idea of a professional army. The soldiers have their golden armour which we all know and love, Elrond is a high-ranking noble but has a similar armour, albeit with several ornamentations and presumably rank insignia, and finally we se Gil-Galad himself, holding the highest possible military rank within the elven army - and yet his amour is still "on track" with the dominant style of golden armour, of course with the rank insignia (ornamentation) apparently common in elven military aesthetics...

    Considering this, Everto has a point that the Elven nobles riding in battle would most probably look more similar to the bulk of the eldar units, their equipment being the top of the line with regards to quality and military aesthetics...

  15. #15
    Everto's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    However, the name of the unit being "Nobles", I don't think we can consider the bodyguard units as actual bodyguards... Rather nobles who ride with the general, as it were, noble sons sent to hone their own command and warrior kills from someone experienced and with authority... .
    The Generals bodygaurd doesn't necessarily need to be nobles. I understand that you like this idea of the High Elven Bodygaurd being composed of Elven Nobles, but it could be interesting to instead have the Bodygaurd be... well a Bodygaurd; a unit of handpicked Elven warriors, Elite soldiers who are given the privelage of serving their lord not because of their blood line but because of their martial merits and loyalty.

    You mentioned how in medieval society Nobles sons would fight alongside other more distinguished Nobles to gain experience. In a "mortal" society, this makes absolute sense, but take into account that they are indeed a society of immortal beings, whose lives are not necessarily spurred onwards by the issues or timeline of a mortal life. I find that the upper echelons of Elven society would thus surround themselves not necessarily just by Elves of noble birth, but also by seasoned martial experts and veterans of the countless conflicts that the Noldor had been involved in for thousands of years.

    Either way, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of the name of the bodygaurd remaining "Elven Nobles", or perhaps "Eldar/Noldorin Nobles", but I don't think that "Eldar Bodygaurd" would be to bad of a title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaul View Post
    I do, however, agree with Everto that the current look of the Noble elves riding into battle does not correspond to that what we already know about elven military equipment tradition... I've written about this in my aforementioned topics, of which Everto is probably aware, so I'm not going into detail here, but rather the fine point of it - in the movies (and it is a primary visual source of lore for this mod) we see the high elf army holding uniformity in high value with regards to their idea of a professional army. The soldiers have their golden armour which we all know and love, Elrond is a high-ranking noble but has a similar armour, albeit with several ornamentations and presumably rank insignia, and finally we se Gil-Galad himself, holding the highest possible military rank within the elven army - and yet his amour is still "on track" with the dominant style of golden armour, of course with the rank insignia (ornamentation) apparently common in elven military aesthetics...

    Considering this, Everto has a point that the Elven nobles riding in battle would most probably look more similar to the bulk of the eldar units, their equipment being the top of the line with regards to quality and military aesthetics...
    Well said...

  16. #16
    Inarus's Avatar In Laziness We Trust
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Good proposal.

    May I just say, Everto, you deserve a Rep for making a wall of text friendly to the eyes!!!




  17. #17
    Everto's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarus View Post
    Good proposal.

    May I just say, Everto, you deserve a Rep for making a wall of text friendly to the eyes!!!
    Glad you like it Inarus

    On a side note... 3/4 of all votes have been cast in favour of a new High Elven Bodygaurd. Its a popular movement apparently
    Last edited by Everto; August 31, 2010 at 02:45 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    i don't like the current warriors of mithlond or the elvin nobles, they're helmets and shoulder pads look looted from gondor and out of place. if they perhaps had no helms or helms like regular elvin infantry perhaps they'd look less daft.
    also the light elvin infantry would look great with a more chainmaily looking armour.. though i do like the tunics. perhaps when they're armour is upgraded by a blacksmith or blah they could get a chainmail look?
    yes i know i digress but we may as well campaign for everything while we are on a roll lol

  19. #19
    Inarus's Avatar In Laziness We Trust
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Everyone who voted against this are involved in the mod and don't want to have to do more work than they will have to for 2.2




  20. #20
    Everto's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: New High Elven Bodygaurd

    Quote Originally Posted by Inarus View Post
    Everyone who voted against this are involved in the mod and don't want to have to do more work than they will have to for 2.2
    Im beggining to wonder if there might be something to it... But on a more related note, I want to hear the viewpoints of those who voted "NO". As of the moment, only people who view this thread as a sincerely good idea have voiced their opinions, whilst more than a dozen people have voted nay and not a single one has backed up their choice.

    I'm beggining to wonder if people just abruptly show up, look in horror at the amount of literature and debate before them, and vote conservatively without sincerely looking over the proposition. I'd like to hear some sort of reasons at least, because quite honestly I don't know why anyone would vote against this proposal, which is why I'd like to hear the other side's perspective.

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