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  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Spike online's vision of the monarchy

    Ah, the British monarchy. Can’t live with them, can’t live without them. Such has been the story of British politics since the fall of Oliver Cromwell’s quasi-republic in 1658. And over 350 years later, there they are still, surveying public life, as parents keep an eye on their children.


    The latest chapter in this inglorious tale of constitutional servility towards hereditary power arrives as part of prime minister Gordon Brown’s ‘Governance of Britain’ programme. It was meant to be a review of Royal Prerogatives – that is, the medieval powers the Crown incredibly still has. For instance, should Regina be hard up, she has the right to sell any swans, whales or wrecks she happens across. More worryingly, the Crown also reserves the right to dissolve parliament, enter treaties, and declare wars.

    And what did the review, unveiled last week, find? That important decisions like making wars or dismissing governments ought not to be powers possessed by the Crown, no matter how nominal these powers might actually be? That a right to swans or sturgeon (a type of fish) is an entitlement as anachronistic as the Queen’s barnet? No, the review advised that everything ought to be left as it is: ‘Our constitution has developed organically over many centuries and change should not be proposed for change’s sake… Without ruling out further changes aimed at increasing parliamentary oversight of the prerogative powers exercised by ministers, the government believes that any further reforms in this area should be considered on a case-by-case basis, in the light of changing circumstances.’ (1)

    If the sheer pusillanimity of the review was disconcerting, the justifications for maintaining royal prerogatives were plain bewildering. Any anachronistic prerogative, like a right to casual revenue from shipwrecks, is to be maintained, the review recommended, because it would take too long to abolish it. The review then made the following astonishing claim: ‘Legislation to replace some of the powers could itself give rise to new risks: of unnecessary incursions into civil liberties on the one hand, or of dangerously weakening the state’s ability to respond to unforeseen circumstances on the other.’ (2)

    Both these supposed risks reveal a lot about the contemporary relationship between the state and the monarchy. Take the second for example: the ability of the state to act quickly and decisively. What this actually means is that instead of having to debate an issue in parliament, with all the democratic time and toil that entails, the Royal Prerogative would allow the government to skip over this bit, few questions asked. Hence it was a Royal Prerogative that allowed former prime minister Tony Blair to go to war with Iraq, and it was a Royal Prerogative that allowed the government entry into the Lisbon Treaty with no public vote or very much democratic debate. Here, Royal Prerogative serves as a mask for state power, a readymade justification for the executive urge.

    Yet at the same time as entrenching executive power at the expense of parliamentary debate, not to mention public contestation, the review is also making the bizarre claim that the continued existence of Royal Prerogatives prevent unnecessary incursions into civil liberties. Come again? Divine right to rule, yes. A sense of entitlement, yes. But civil liberties…? Historically, the last thing the Crown has been associated with has been liberty, civil or otherwise. Rather, the sovereign rule of a single family has been seen by many radicals and progressives as the enemy of liberty, a source of arbitrary and often cruelly exercised power. It was precisely in opposition to royal power that the Houses of Parliament asserted the rights of the people, albeit limited to property owners (that is, ‘freemen’). For instance, Edward Coke’s 1628 Petition of Right, which sought to impose limits upon royal power, asserted, amongst other things, that ‘no freeman may be taken or imprisoned or be disseized of his freehold or liberties, or his free customs, or be outlawed or exiled, or in any manner destroyed, but by the lawful judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land’ (3). Far from being a bulwark against an erosion of civil liberties, royal power, unelected and unaccountable, was seen as its greatest threat.

    Yet, in this latest review, we see a strange, disturbing volte face, a reversal of direction in which royal power, even if little more than a mask of the state’s power, is trumpeted as a friend of the people. Once keen to defend the liberty of the commons against the arbitrary exercise of monarchical power, we now see an elected government’s very own review advocating the maintenance of the Royal Prerogative.

    The roots of this historical reversal lie in the political class’s profound sense of their own illegitimacy, a phenomenon driven by increasingly vacuous politics and dwindling public engagement, and currently showing in an MP expenses scandal near you. Little wonder that the Crown, compared to the self-seekers’ paradise at Westminster, has become the acceptable face of state power. It appears to stand above the tawdry realm of politics – and politicians – as the embodiment of continuity and disinterestedness, almost like some sort of age-old conscience of the state. To quote Yes, Minister creator, Sir Anthony Jay: ‘The strength of the monarchy does not lie in the power that it has, but in the power it denies to others.’

    In practice, however, Crown powers, no longer really being those of an actual monarch’s, furnish the state with an authority it would otherwise lack. For the political class, the notion of royalty, and its attendant prerogatives, serves to mediate between state and civil society, functioning as a check on the iniquities and follies of parliamentary politics, and by association, the iniquities and follies of those who voted for them. Much like contemporary defences of the House of Lords, the implication here is that the House of Commons, the body that is meant to represent the people, cannot be trusted to exercise the power invested in it by the electorate. That the government itself would produce a review advising against reforming the Royal Prerogative is a form of self-mistrust. It says: there needs to be a monarch to mediate, and certain policies and decisions need a royal stamp of approval. The Commons are just too common.



    And it is for this very reason that the monarchy, and all its constitutional hangovers, needs to be abolished. This isn’t because Queen Elizabeth II or one of the latest in a long line of inbreds actually threatens to exercise any power themselves. Lizzie, Charlie, Willy et al are mere entertainment, a medieval freakshow for tourists. The real reason the monarchy needs to be consigned to the distant past is that its continued existence institutionalises a distrust of people and our capacity to participate in rational and serious political debate. The monarchy hovers over politics, like a friendly tyrant from times past, preventing its subjects, many of whom are dismissed as too stupid, from coming to any harm at their own hands. And for politicians it serves as a mask of power for those unable to exercise it openly, for those who are unwilling to expose their decisions, such as ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, to argument and debate.

    The continued existence of the monarchy reinforces the political immaturity which it in turn uses to justify itself. In 1867, this was precisely the reason Walter Bagehot gave in The English Constitution: ‘A republic has only difficult ideas in government; a Constitutional monarchy has an easy idea too; it has a comprehensible idea for the vacant many, as well as complex laws and notions for the inquiring few.’ (4) Of course, if you believe that politics is best left to those with a divine right to rule by proxy, if you believe that the commons need protecting from themselves, that the mass of the masses are just to ‘rude’, in Bagehot’s parlance, then the Royal Prerogative probably looks like a good idea. But if it’s a grown-up politics that you aspire to, a political life in which a people determines its own existence, then we should rid ourselves of this monarchical residue.

    ‘[The Monarchy’s] mystery is its life. We must not let daylight in upon magic’, wrote Bagehot. The life of politics, however, is enlightened, not magical. The royal aura of politics needs to be stripped away, the shabby veil of legitimacy with which too many state decisions are draped needs to be lifted, and policies debated in the clear light of day.

    Tim Black is senior writer at spiked.

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/7592/



    I quite like Spike, I don't agree with everything or even most things but I think they are bang on the money here and either way I'm entertained by their level of commentary.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Spike online's vision of the monarchy

    i like spike online as well,
    and this quote is quite striking as well:
    The real reason the monarchy needs to be consigned to the distant past is that its continued existence institutionalises a distrust of people and our capacity to participate in rational and serious political debate

  3. #3

    Default Re: Spike online's vision of the monarchy

    Many people would say about all these crowned heads that "they don't have power anymore".

    But if they don't have any power, why are they still there? Because those without power are eliminated from the game. There are two possible answers to this question. Either the assumption that they're mere firgureheads is wrong, or they are useful for the people with the power. Either way, they're antithetical to democracy. And must go away. Mme. Guillotine thirsts for noble blood.

  4. #4

    Default The United Republic of Britian

    I would like to here what you think about the abolition of the British Monarchy and the declaration of a British republic.

    My views


    Britain deserves the best. That means the best democracy we can create, a democracy that genuinely puts you, us, in charge. Our children should be inspired to believe they can achieve anything they want and our democracy should encourage that sense of aspiration. We should all be encouraged to take responsibility for our own political affairs, and our democracy should embody that responsibility. The monarchy does none of these things. It embodies a spirit of deference and dependence on others. It robs us of aspiration, telling us that even the wisest and most talented commoner is no match for even the most unpleasant and immoral royal. Crucially though, the monarchy is the heart of the British constitution and as such it denies us the best democracy we could have. It keeps from us the power to rule ourselves, it crushes the democratic spirit in order to justify its own existence.

  5. #5
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    I thought the Monarchy was "just for show" and that Parliament was the real people in charge and free of Royal influence.

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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Not to discourage your sensationalist rant here but you Brits can get rid of the Monarchy any time you want.

    Problem is, the majority don't want to. Besides, the power of the Monarchy is limited at best.
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Quote Originally Posted by That Dutch guy View Post
    Not to discourage your sensationalist rant here but you Brits can get rid of the Monarchy any time you want.

    Problem is, the majority don't want to. Besides, the power of the Monarchy is limited at best.
    but maybe when Prince Charles accedes to the throne people here will change their minds , he trolls them about the evils of GM food and modern architecture
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  8. #8
    Spike's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    but maybe when Prince Charles accedes to the throne people here will change their minds , he trolls them about the evils of GM food and modern architecture
    yeah, if the Queen made sense of all Prince Charles do, the best option she had is skip the sucession line and put William on charge, everything should be fine . But even when Prince Charles is gonna be as King, I still hope that at least he will got a bit rational and better... promoting peace may help him in Public Opinion matter, and even when he doesn't legally hold the power, openly criticize Prime Minister for commiting anti-peace action will be fine

    At least Britain is quite democratic and Monarch served well as historical as well as symbolical head of state, made people values their root and country even more than republics... I can imagine, if the British monarch is not a democratic one, they will track every one of you that was British Citizen and said "Monarch should go down, go British Republic"... then they simply put you on the gallows for commiting "treason"... ahh... back to Medieval days...

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  9. #9
    Augment's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    I wholeheartedly would support a British Republic as much as i would support a Dutch Republic etc
    But it seems no one ever noticed the French Revolution and thus they dont believe in what Republics can achieve, they mobilise a people to be better than themselves.
    but how does one achieve a Republic in these times? people are being kept docile with entertainment and dont even read books on politics, philosophy, history etcetera.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Quote Originally Posted by Augment View Post
    I wholeheartedly would support a British Republic as much as i would support a Dutch Republic etc
    But it seems no one ever noticed the French Revolution and thus they dont believe in what Republics can achieve, they mobilise a people to be better than themselves.
    but how does one achieve a Republic in these times? people are being kept docile with entertainment and dont even read books on politics, philosophy, history etcetera.
    Yes, totally agree with you on that also the British Constitution is fundamentally undemocratic, we are nation which enjoys some features of a democracy e.g. electing a ruling party every 5 years but the prime minster can call a election anytime he like and the queen can refuse but if called the prime minster can call an election at a time of high popularity and then not call an election for another 5 years.

    And also the king/queen can not be prosecuted, so if the king/queen is corrupt they cannot go to court or face the consequences, the last time a British king faced the consequences of his actions was in the 1600's and that was only because a the revolutionaries.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    The Monarchy works quite well (its the ultimate check on a dictator) even if it does have disadvantages to a republic. The royal family attracts far more tourism than they are paid anyway.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Yes it should be gotten rid of.

    Seems like this could be merged with my thread made yesterday (or posted in it) http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=385242

    Those reasons are most cogent.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    I think for Britain it's best to keep as a monarchy. Dunno why some ppl think "monarchy"=undemocratic ways these days. I mean,, Britain has one of the most democratic governments, and Liz stays there only for the facade, you're more free in the UK than in most "democratic" republic
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  14. #14
    Their Law's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain.E.Blackadder View Post
    I would like to here what you think about the abolition of the British Monarchy and the declaration of a British republic.

    My views


    Britain deserves the best. That means the best democracy we can create, a democracy that genuinely puts you, us, in charge. Our children should be inspired to believe they can achieve anything they want and our democracy should encourage that sense of aspiration. We should all be encouraged to take responsibility for our own political affairs, and our democracy should embody that responsibility. The monarchy does none of these things. It embodies a spirit of deference and dependence on others. It robs us of aspiration, telling us that even the wisest and most talented commoner is no match for even the most unpleasant and immoral royal. Crucially though, the monarchy is the heart of the British constitution and as such it denies us the best democracy we could have. It keeps from us the power to rule ourselves, it crushes the democratic spirit in order to justify its own existence.
    I'd take the current system over a Presidential Republic any day of the week. Though I'd be the first to admit that our current system needs some pretty heavy reform. Particularly on voting and in Parliament's composition. But i'm heavily in favour of the monarchy at the moment, simply because the alternative is a President style figure, and i like the idea that my head of state is above the whimsical vagaries of modern politics.

    Furthermore it's been at least a century since the idea that 'the people serve the monarch' died out in Britain. Today the monarchy exists at the will of the people and is answerable to the people. They are our monarchs.

    Reform is needed to the UK's system, but abolishing the monarchy is not one of them.
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Captain, you make an eloquent argument but it's entriely BS. The British people do rule themselves, we elect a Parliament to do so. The Queen may be "Head of State", but she exercises no real authority or power. If you want to destroy the traditions of this nation just so we can give the Prime Minister a new "Head of State" title then you're a petty, petty man.

    I fail to see how being a "royal" automatically makes them better than a "commoner" anyway. There are no laws requiring a "commoner" to earn less than the Monarch, to live in less luxury, to be less prominent (I bet more people will know the name Winston Churchill than Elizabath, she's famous for her title and is mostly known as "the Queen" to foreigners) or to have less importance in the world (indeed, the Queens importance in worldwide affairs isn't really huge, the PM probably wields more influence).

    Your arguments are fully flawed. Children are not taught that they are inferior to the Monarch, they are not taught that they will never be as great or successful as they are.

    I'd even go as far as saying you're living in a fantasy world, Captain. All these powers you attribute to the Queen as if she can use them at a whim and does so regularly. They're all technically legal, but then again so is the killing of Scotsmen in the City of York. Why don't you campaign against that as well?

  16. #16
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    The royal doesn't exercise the power that is assumed as part of her Office but it is used to mask the controversial powers wielded by the executive in the name of, you've fundamentally misunderstood the argument for getting rid in assuming it merely resides in the nature of how the monarch exercises power.

    Poach your entire mocking and derogatory tone is hilarious as it appears you are completely clueless on the topic yourself, and when someone threatens your precious vision of a nation they are derided? That is hilarious equally.

    Read the damn link, educate thyself.

    Edit: You know what the worst part is, I honestly don't think an out and out monarchist who understood the system would defend the monarchy in this current state.
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; August 31, 2010 at 05:47 PM.

  17. #17
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    I read your thread, Denny. It seems to me your main thrust of argument is that the House of Commons is fundamentally mired in an air of mistrust because of the checks and balances existing via the Monarchy and House of Lords, labouring under the apparently false pretense that it cannot deal with it's own affairs and must be double-checked in everything by higher powers.

    Frankly, I don't trust the Commons to get it right. I do not, and will never, trust anyone to run a country based on the sole qualification of being elected. Being popular does not require or imply any competancy, intelligence or skill, if school kids are anything to go by it implies the complete opposite.

    Or is your main point of argument the use of Royal Perogative to go into Iraq and sign the Lisbon Treaty? A reasonable argument could be made on those grounds for changing the nature of Royal Perogative, but I hardly see it as justifcation for abolishing the Monarchy. It seems to me that you want the Monarchy gone regardless and see this as a reason to blow out of proportion. The issue could be easily changed by the passing of a law preventing the incumbent party requesting the use of Royal Perogative without Parliamentary approval.

  18. #18
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    I read your thread, Denny. It seems to me your main thrust of argument is that the House of Commons is fundamentally mired in an air of mistrust because of the checks and balances existing via the Monarchy and House of Lords, labouring under the apparently false pretense that it cannot deal with it's own affairs and must be double-checked in everything by higher powers.
    Errr... no not at all. It is about the power of the executive. I do believe I even mentioned that in my last post.

    Frankly, I don't trust the Commons to get it right. I do not, and will never, trust anyone to run a country based on the sole qualification of being elected. Being popular does not require or imply any competancy, intelligence or skill, if school kids are anything to go by it implies the complete opposite.
    Well wonderfully that wasn't what I was getting at, as I mentioned, the power of the executive WHO ARE ELECTED... The crown has the power but not the authority therefore we have an elected party whose elite can move as it wishes within the limits of political capital which stretches very far.

    And if you don't trust someone who is elected to get it right you certainly shouldn't trust people whose sole advantage or qualification is money, vested interests or birth.

    Or is your main point of argument the use of Royal Perogative to go into Iraq and sign the Lisbon Treaty? A reasonable argument could be made on those grounds for changing the nature of Royal Perogative, but I hardly see it as justifcation for abolishing the Monarchy. It seems to me that you want the Monarchy gone regardless and see this as a reason to blow out of proportion. The issue could be easily changed by the passing of a law preventing the incumbent party requesting the use of Royal Perogative without Parliamentary approval.
    The only reasons to keep the monarchy are usually ''but they bring so much tourism in'' which could be done without having them invested as a constitutional power with no authority.

    What you are suggesting is essentially that, that you would hamstring the royal power along with the authority that was dispersed long ago into the hands of the executive and you would institute a series of checks and balances that allow the executive to act with reference to parlimentary approval effectively removing the monarchy from the equation.

    Congratulations, you're a republican.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    I would be pissed off if a family got to live in such opulance on the backs of tax payers. But i dont know where the family gets its money from, if its income from the state than its ed up. If its old money than ok.
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  20. #20
    Their Law's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The United Republic of Britian

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickle_mole View Post
    I would be pissed off if a family got to live in such opulance on the backs of tax payers. But i dont know where the family gets its money from, if its income from the state than its ed up. If its old money than ok.
    Only the Queen and Prince Philip are directly funded by the state I believe. They are less of a tax burden on the UK population than the US president is on US citizens.
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