Lithuanian cavalry

[Yeepeep]

Lithuania, Late campaign, VH/VH, Gracul AI, SS 6.3

Why the hell are the lithuanian horse archers so ungodly good? I mean, with a missile attack of 2 I expected them to be somewhat on par with your regular levy archers. But hell no, they decimate heavy cavalry like there's no tomorrow. Christ knights are a joke, bodyguards go down easily (but not the general himself). Even my all-time favourite pechenegs can't compete for kills and effectiveness.

It doesn't make sense, even the almighty mourtatoi with a missile attack of 5 can barely scratch the heavy cavalry. So, what am I missing here?

[JorisofHolland]

There's more to a unit than just it's attack value, though this seems a bit strange. Anyway, these factors might have influence:

1) Accuracy. But Mourtatoi were quite professional, I think, so that shouldn't be it.

2) Range. But that doesn't make the difference between destroying and 'barely scratching'.

3) The speed with which they fire.

4) Armour Piercing. But still, that would make a 2 count like a 3 hit, and Mourtatoi should have at least 5.

[Yeepeep]

There's more to a unit than just it's attack value, though this seems a bit strange. Anyway, these factors might have influence:

1) Accuracy. But Mourtatoi were quite professional, I think, so that shouldn't be it.

2) Range. But that doesn't make the difference between destroying and 'barely scratching'.

3) The speed with which they fire.

4) Armour Piercing. But still, that would make a 2 count like a 3 hit, and Mourtatoi should have at least 5.

I was comparing them to the (negligible) damage that the mourtatoi do to Sipahi lancers or Qapukulu in an open-field battle.

Point 3 may actually be significant, I watched them closely on normal speed - they shoot continuously. The pechenegs do sort of the same thing though.

What is bothering me is this clear advantage makes the campaign somewhat easy

edit: Actually their effectiveness is too good to be true against heavy cavalry, I haven't noticed significant differences against infantry. Which is what makes the campaign easy - in my limited experience (30ish turns) Lithuania's main problem is the heavy western cavalry.

[Ichon]

It is mostly about position and rang and the type of arrows they are using.

Any professional foot archer can be even more devastating than a horse archer if they could get to the right position but that hardly ever happens.

Try having Lithuanian Cavalry fire on an approaching Christ Knights company from the front on flat ground. The Christ Knights will lose a handful or less. A professional archers like the castle archers will do about the same damage despite even larger unit size because many of their arrows will miss a smaller company like Christ Knights.

However the Lithuanian Cavalry can quickly move to high ground and the side/rear of enemies which lowers defense of their target. Foot archers are rarely able to due do that but if you succeed with them you will notice they do even more damage, especially to a stationary large target.

For instance a unit of armored halberdiers that Teutons get will take very few losses from Lithuanian Cavalry or archers with their high defense of 20+ in frontal missile attacks. Lithuanian cavalry can circle quickly to the rear but still use all their ammo before killing even 50% of the halberdiers.

If you get a halberdier unit to chase the Lithuanian Cavalry past some of your castle archers hidden on a hill with "fire at will" off. Then turn if on once the Halberdiers are past the archers and rear is partially exposed they can lose 50% in a few volleys.

Position also relates to elevation. Lithuanian Cavalry is able to reach and use very small differences in elevation much more efficiently than any foot archers.

Lithuanian Cavalry aren't exceptional as horse archers. Pechnegs are great- their main limitation is short range versus the long range that Lithuanian Cavalry bows have and the arrow type also makes a small difference. However- if you play many eastern faction there are many other horse archer unit which have long range missiles and higher stats than Lithuanian Cavalry and they are even more devastating despite having slightly lower accuracy arrows.

[Shoryn]

The fact is they use cav_mass_war_arrow, which is unique in the EDU; if you take a look at the descr_projectile you can see this bow has an accuracy_vs_units value of 0.0825 (the elite_mass_bodkin_arrow, used by Retinue Longbowmen, "only" has 0.07). Add to this the fact they are "missile" and not "skirmish", meaning they shoot arrows faster (albeit with less precision) than "skirmish" units.

[Yeepeep]

The fact is they use cav_mass_war_arrow, which is unique in the EDU; if you take a look at the descr_projectile you can see this bow has an accuracy_vs_units value of 0.0825 (the elite_mass_bodkin_arrow, used by Retinue Longbowmen, "only" has 0.07). Add to this the fact they are "missile" and not "skirmish", meaning they shoot arrows faster (albeit with less precision) than "skirmish" units.

Thanks, now it makes sense!

So does this make them the "uber horse archers"?

[preachercheeze]

The fact is they use cav_mass_war_arrow, which is unique in the EDU; if you take a look at the descr_projectile you can see this bow has an accuracy_vs_units value of 0.0825 (the elite_mass_bodkin_arrow, used by Retinue Longbowmen, "only" has 0.07). Add to this the fact they are "missile" and not "skirmish", meaning they shoot arrows faster (albeit with less precision) than "skirmish" units.

the lower the value, the better the accuracy...

[Medkirtys]

the lower the value, the better the accuracy...

If i undestood correctly, the higher the value, the better the accuracy

[preachercheeze]

If i undestood correctly, the higher the value, the better the accuracy

nope... the lower the number, the better the accuracy... although all low numbers might have strange effects... eg. setting it to 0 might not work that well...

but compare the levy archers with the dismounted longbowmen and see for yourself...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

projectile peasant_militia_arrow

effect arrows_new_set
end_effect arrow_impact_ground_set
end_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_package_effect arrow_impact_wall_set
end_shatter_effect arrow_impact_ground_set
end_shatter_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_shatter_package_effect arrow_broken_impact_wall_set

effect_offset -1.5
damage 0
radius 0.1
mass 0.03
accuracy_vs_units 0.0825
min_angle -80
max_angle 70
velocity 19 38
display aimed
effect_only

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

projectile elite_bodkin_arrow

effect arrows_new_set
end_effect arrow_impact_ground_set
end_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_package_effect arrow_impact_wall_set
end_shatter_effect arrow_impact_ground_set
end_shatter_man_effect man_impact_tiny_set
end_shatter_package_effect arrow_broken_impact_wall_set

effect_offset -1.5
damage 0
radius 0.1
mass 0.08
accuracy_vs_units 0.0475
min_angle -80
max_angle 70
velocity 24 48
display aimed
effect_only

[Shoryn]

I don't know how works the numbers in this files so it was pure speculation; Preachercheeze may be right (and he must if he's sure !)

[Shoryn]

Hehe yes my bad, thanks preacher for the light.

[preachercheeze]

Hehe yes my bad, thanks preacher for the light.

"The pessimist see a dark tunnel

The optimist see a light in the tunnel

The realist see a train coming

The locomotive driver sees three bloody idiots on the rails"

[RollingWave]

Generally, its because range attacks hit harder than you suspect, remember that a 2 attack melee unit usually only have mayyyybe 1/4 of their unit attacking (if they're lucky!) and have to deal with the full defense stats (armour + skill + shield) meanwhile, a 2 attack archers almost always fire from nearly the whole group, and always neglect defense skills on top of having the potentially to partially or completely neglect shield bonuses.

If you actually try to have levy archers fire their whole quiver you'll be surprised at how much damage they actually do . the problem of course, is that in real battle they be lucky to get maybe 5 shots off the entire battle. (and even fewer of them are direct line shots)

for Lithu horse archer, their long range is really the most devastating aspect, since it means that they can almost always deliver nearly the whole ammo, while also exploiting better positioning more often.

As for Teuton vs Lithu, basically just exploit siege as much as possible, your infantry >>>>>>>>>> theirs by a lot.

[Supercargo]

The regular (foot) "Archer" units work wonders against Lithuanian Cavalry. With 5-6 of these unit in a stack, they will take these annoying HA out. That's how I countered them when playing the TO.