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Thread: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview and Release

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  1. #1
    gamegeek2's Avatar Centenarius
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    Icon4 BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview and Release

    BC 3.0 Preview
    EDU and Battle System



    Greetings Broken Crescent fans.

    Today, I present to you a preview of the new Unit Stats and Battle System, that will be featured in Broken Crescent v3.0, as well as a video of a battle under the new system - and a special surprise.

    Introduction

    For those of you who have been around the Europa Barbarorum scene, you may already know me. For those who do now, I am gamegeek2, leader of the EB: Novus Ordo Mundi project and a member of the Europa Barbarorum 2 Team. You may also be familiar with Aradan, Fourth Age: Total War mod leader and expert on the Rome: Total War engine EDU - it is with a [heavily modified] version of his tool and a little hand-work that these stats are created.

    Unlike the BC 2.0 EDU, the 3.0 EDU is not so much based on the classification of the unit as the equipment - while units certainly do have their individual roles on the battlefield, it is their training and equipment that defines their effectiveness, and this, above all, is what determines unit stats under the new system.

    Class and Quality

    Units are separated into four "classes" to represent their social background - this has an effect on unit size and cost.

    Militia are units that largely fight for the defense of their area, whether levied into the army or volunteering for the defense of their town. They have reduced recruitment costs, though are a bit more to upkeep, than their counterparts.



    Normal units are regulars, accustomed to fighting, but not necessarily full-time professionals; most "general issue" infantry fall into this category.


    Professional units are full-time warriors; their job is war. They are more expensive to recruit than their counterparts, to represent the fact that they have additional training and are equipped by the state/government, for the most part; they also come in smaller units.



    Noble
    units are either composed of nobles, or are almost exclusively royal units. They cost significantly more money to train than other units, and come in significantly smaller numbers.



    The other main classification of unit is into what are effectively rankings/tiers, representing the overall effectiveness of the unit; they can be Levy (Levy Spearmen), Normal (Kypchak Tribal Cavalry), Trained (Sergeant Spearmen), Professional/Noble (Askari Nobles), Low Elite (Tadzreuli), or High Elite (Royal Kataphractoi). Each step up the ladder shows decreased unit size and increased recruitment costs and upkeep, along with increased morale, defense/attack skill, and charge.

    Battle Guidelines

    Heavy Cavalry



    Traditionally the hardest part of M2TW to balance, the Heavy Cavalry still pack a battle-winning punch; the new stat system arrives at a balance via the lance charge stat and the light_spear trait. Upon examination of the unit stats, one notices a significant difference. For example, the attack stats of the Latin Knights:

    stat_pri 4, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1

    stat_pri_attr ap
    stat_sec 7, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, sword, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no

    The lance's non-charge attack stat is significantly cut, but has the AP attribute, in order to balance its effectiveness against heavier units, which would otherwise absorb the lance attack much easier. Remember, the AP attribute halves the enemy's armour for purposes of attack calculation.


    Now look at the attack and defense stats of slavic spearmen and slavic swordsmen


    stat_pri 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 50, 1

    stat_pri_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 10, 7, 6, metal

    stat_pri 11, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, sword, 0, 1

    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 10, 7, 6, metal

    Though their defense stats may appear identical, the slavic spearmen have the
    light_spear attribute attached to their primary weapon. This means they receive a +8 defense bonus against cavalry, and a -4 defense penalty against infantry. This is in contract to the spear attribute, which lowers the weapon's attack against infantry by 4 and pumps it up by 8 against cavalry. The spear_bonus_4 gives an additional +4 attack bonus against cavalry.

    So, fighting against horsemen, the Slavic spearmen's stats are effectively this:


    stat_pri 11, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 50, 1

    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 10, 15, 6, metal

    Instead of giving a large attack skill bonus, giving the spearmen a large defense bonus makes them resist a charge better, rather than take more damage from a charge, but deal more damage back to the enemy. This is fitting, given the general role of spearmen as a defensive unit. Thus, our Latin Knights are going to have a hard time cracking these Slavs (tests will show 10-15 casualties from a proper frontal charge). You'll need elite cavalry to compete with regular spearmen, if you're going for a frontal assault, and such troops are probably better spent anyways.


    However, heavy cavalry will crush standard issue non-spear troops; they will perform well against many professional non-spear troops as well, and will smash anyone with a charge to the rear, and tear into enemies from the flanks - this is by far the best use for them.


    Other Cavalry



    -Swordsmen Cavalry tend to be superior melee fighters to their lancer counterparts; they lack the same devastating charge, however
    -Light Spear Cavalry will deliver a smackdown to light troops, but their charge will have little impact against most quality troops, due to their lack of an armour piercing lance charge
    -Javelin Cavalry pack a punch with their many javelins, but must be managed carefully to keep out of melee

    Missiles



    Missiles will seem overall less effective (for the most part) than they were in BC 2.02; however, they still are an essential part of any army, and keep light troops in check.

    -Javelins are the most powerful missile (apart from siege units); generally, skirmishers will have the most javelins, but the least penetrating power; armour piercing javelins are the most powerful, but require moving in the most
    -Crossbows and Close Bows are excellent tools against armoured units, but overall less efficient than arrows against lightly armoured units-
    -Arrows are great against light units, but are poor against well armoured ones; higher quality archers have greater accuracy and somewhat better penetration power; horse archers tend to have less penetration power than infantry archers, come in smaller numbers, and are more expensive, but are, by being mounted, faster and more flexible

    Infantry



    Infantry forms the core of most armies, and a good mix of infantry will be key to most armies

    -
    Spearmen are, as previously demonstrated, the primary tool against cavalry; however, they may not be able to crack some of the more heavy horsemens' defenses, though they will be able to defend against them well enough; however, they are at a disadvantage against other infantry of the same quality
    -Swordsmen are great for taking down infantry with low armour stats, though they will have a tough time cracking well armoured troops
    -Axemen and Macemen are strong against armour, though less efficient than swordsmen against light troops
    -Two-Handers are monsters, and will hack through almost anything; but rely more on armour than other infantry, since they usually lack a shield value; this makes them vulnerable to AP weapons, including many lancers' charges.

    Defense

    -Armour stats are assigned based on the equipment of the unit (and its mount) in question, and this alone. Most shields that are strapped to the back of missile units count as a lower armour value instead of a shield value (as shield value is only from the front and left, and doubles against missiles from the front, whereas armour value applies from all sides). Compared with previous iterations of Broken Crescent, armour values are quite high, and having armour piercing weapons at your disposal will be key.
    -Defense Skill stats are calculated based on how much armour the unit wears, its skill level, classification (Foot/Mounted/Foot Missile/Mounted Missile), and other specialization (Religious, Bodyguard, etc.)
    -Shield stats are calculated based on the size and material of the shield in question; cavalry shields have decreased effect since they can't cover much of the horse, and aren't as strong of a frontal defense when mounted anyways.

    Video

    Courtesy of Neige Noire, we have an awesome video to show you guys, demonstrating much of the new battle system.



    Special Release


    Last, but certainly not least, one may have noticed a file attached to this post. It is a version of the Broken Crescent 2.02 EDU, but redone under the new stat system. To use it, back up your export_descr_unit file (under broken_crescent/data, where M2TW is installed) somewhere, then download the new file and copy-paste it into the same section (broken_crescent/data). Do the same for the descr_projectiles file.

    NOTE: This will NOT invalidate current saves - it should be fully compatible. If any problems arise, post them in this thread or contact me via PM.
    (LAST UPDATE: 4/5/11, 10:29 PM ET)

    At some point in the future, I intend to release a tips and tricks for units under the new EDU (as I've played a lot with it) - however, I would like you guys to test it out for yourselves, and give me feedback, so that I can improve on it.

    Have a Great Day!

    -gamegeek2

    Last edited by gamegeek2; April 05, 2011 at 09:29 PM.

  2. #2
    karaislam's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Broken Crescent 3.0 - EDU and Battle System Preview

    thank you .i ll use it with my own broken crescent submod.for personel use sure

  3. #3

    Default Re: Broken Crescent 3.0 - EDU and Battle System Preview

    broken crescent is hands down my favourite mod, the battles last forever and i really enjoyed playing this. also this is looking better and better.

  4. #4

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    great, glad to see cavalry become stronger now, I always thought they were a bit too easy to deal with.

  5. #5

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Looks great!
    Sig made by me, content from Broken Crescent.

  6. #6

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Looks fantastic, gg! So far it seems the EDU for BC3 will be very realistic.

  7. #7

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Is there by any chance the unit's size will be increase especially for elite units? because if the elite have strong stat, but low number then that's basically the same as being weak.

  8. #8
    wudang_clown's Avatar Fire Is Inspirational
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Babygod22 View Post
    Is there by any chance the unit's size will be increase especially for elite units? because if the elite have strong stat, but low number then that's basically the same as being weak.
    I've read somewhere that it's far more complicated that one could assume accordingly to common sense...

    But let's wait for GG's answer...

    Btw, have you tested your assumptions by playing a battle with the new EDU?

    Under the patronage of m_1512

  9. #9

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by wudang_clown View Post


    Btw, have you tested your assumptions by playing a battle with the new EDU?
    I only played a few battles so far so I can't say that I do , and what Im seeing so far is balance enough, although the elite spear units are kind of overpowered.
    I was hoping for bigger unit scale, it give a sense of epicness to the battle.

    @gamegeek2
    Did you increased the upkeep and recruitment cost of units? I'm playing as Ghazni and by turn 3 my cash is down to -14000, I did not adopt anyone nor recruit any units, only built 2 buildings but they're supose to give me more income. I took a look in the EDU but I don't remember which value is cost and upkeep.

    If you did increase their cost can you send me the new settlement income's script that applies to the new cost? thanks
    Last edited by Babygod22; August 25, 2010 at 07:04 PM.

  10. #10
    gamegeek2's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Elite spear units' power over comparable elites is due to their formations being tighter; breaking up a spear formation makes the individuals much weaker compared to infantry.

    Is there by any chance the unit's size will be increase especially for elite units? because if the elite have strong stat, but low number then that's basically the same as being weak.
    I love large units, believe me. But the reasons are twofold - one, many BC models are high quality, and could cause massive lag for inferior computers.

    On the small elites; several reasons

    1. Elite in large units would be very ahistorical; they were small cadres, the men were few and far between, and were not committed easily - this is my vision of what elites should be
    2. Relating to #1 - large elite units would be incredibly expensive. A unit of 75 Spatharioi costs about 1.5 times the upkeep of a unit of 125 Spathatoi; if they were the same size, those Spatharioi would have over 1000 upkeep. Historically, this was also the problem with fielding large numbers of elite troops - they would require lots of pay (barring their being slaves) and very expensive equipment.
    3. Elites are already very powerful troops; having a faction able to field an army of 125/150 unit elites would make elite spam from well-financed factions an even bigger problem (this is a big problem with elite phalanxes in EB)

  11. #11
    fightermedic's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by gamegeek2 View Post


    I love large units, believe me. But the reasons are twofold - one, many BC models are high quality, and could cause massive lag for inferior computers.
    first of all:
    looks very good !
    second:
    i dont really get that quote... what is that option in the main menu for if not to turn down unit size if your pc cant handle the large ones?
    in my humble opinion the unit with the most men should on "huge" setting be exactly 250 men so that people with good pcs can have the maximum out of it .. people with lower pcs still can turn down unit sizes
    just a thought

  12. #12
    szwejk's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Babygod22 View Post
    @gamegeek2
    Did you increased the upkeep and recruitment cost of units? I'm playing as Ghazni and by turn 3 my cash is down to -14000, I did not adopt anyone nor recruit any units, only built 2 buildings but they're supose to give me more income. I took a look in the EDU but I don't remember which value is cost and upkeep.
    Hi.

    About upkeep and consrtuction costs.
    I wrote a small application to tune STAT_COST best for me.
    (It's about 400 lines to edit)
    This app makes this automaticly for me.
    I can mail this program to you if you like.
    CK soldat
    sorry for my english

  13. #13

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by szwejk View Post
    Hi.

    About upkeep and consrtuction costs.
    I wrote a small application to tune STAT_COST best for me.
    (It's about 400 lines to edit)
    This app makes this automaticly for me.
    I can mail this program to you if you like.
    sure buddy thanks. pm me the file
    Last edited by Babygod22; August 27, 2010 at 03:40 PM.

  14. #14
    metsikhovne's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    nice very nice

  15. #15

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Thank for explaination, you forgot to answer my other questions about unit upkeep
    Last edited by Babygod22; August 25, 2010 at 08:36 PM.

  16. #16
    gamegeek2's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Indeed, upkeep got cranked up. This will be taken into account in BC 3.0

    What script that would apply to the costs? This is the one document, that's all - no other official changes for BC 2.02 to go with this, yet.

    I'll try playing a few Ghaznavid turns and see what I can come up with.

    EDIT: Having assessed the Ghaznavid starting situation, this is what I have come up with:

    -You have a starting unit of Elephants that cost you 1800 upkeep - this is a lot and should be carefully examined before judging whether the ellies are worth keeping.
    -You have a stack of 6 cavalry at the start that each cost you about 600 upkeep - again, not cheap, and should be examined carefully.
    Last edited by gamegeek2; August 25, 2010 at 08:56 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by gamegeek2 View Post
    Indeed, upkeep got cranked up. This will be taken into account in BC 3.0

    What script that would apply to the costs? This is the one document, that's all - no other official changes for BC 2.02 to go with this, yet.

    I'll try playing a few Ghaznavid turns and see what I can come up with.

    EDIT: Having assessed the Ghaznavid starting situation, this is what I have come up with:

    -You have a starting unit of Elephants that cost you 1800 upkeep - this is a lot and should be carefully examined before judging whether the ellies are worth keeping.
    -You have a stack of 6 cavalry at the start that each cost you about 600 upkeep - again, not cheap, and should be examined carefully.
    Yea exactly, in the old script, the starting elephant unit only cost 700, and those horse archers unit cost about 200-300 each, it is cheaper, my point is that when you increase unit's costs you have to either increase the starting cash for each factions, or you have to increase the income of the building to match those cost or else you will go bankrupt real fast. I think those are in the descr_culture or descr_building something, can't remember exactly.

  18. #18

    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    That's nice to see some progress.

  19. #19
    gamegeek2's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    It's roughly the same as Europa Barbarorum starting conditions.

    You can blitz, or disband. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

  20. #20
    Ältester der Motten's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by gamegeek2 View Post
    It's roughly the same as Europa Barbarorum starting conditions.
    Oh please no...

    Can you add an alternative version with less increased prices for BC3 too?

    Because I am sure I am not the only one who likes beefed up combat without beefed up prices.
    Last edited by Ältester der Motten; November 12, 2010 at 06:46 AM. Reason: Edited wording because the original might ahve offended and I'm nice and diplomatic like that.

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