SS6.4 early era historically more accurate start position (1100)

[Gorrrrrn]

Making the Stainless Steel 6.4 start position more historically accurate
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update 14/01/2011
----------------------
This remains a work in progress. We now have SS6.4 and can work on getting an initial version released so people can see progress so far.

Not everything in the wish list has been implemented yet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some suggestions:
revised 10/09/2010

Summary of proposed region changes for Stainless Steel 6.4 early era - 1100

Faction

Aragon
rename Aragon-Navarra
remove Zaragoza and Barcelona
add Pamplona (no change to region)

Byzantium
remove Durazzo
add Ragusa

Crusader States
none

Cumans
remove Targoviste, Kazan, Bulgar, Yelabuga
add Azaq, Astrakhan, Oleshe
rename Astrakhan to Xacitarxan
merge Jaiksk and Embi regions
chop NW chunk off of Baia region and add to Halych

Denmark
change Lund from town to castle (no change to region)

Egypt
rename Luxor castle to Aswan castle (no change to region)

England
none

France
none

Genoa
remove Pisa and Ajaccio (no change to regions)

HRE
remove Staufen castle replace with Strasburg city (no change to region)
move Hamburg (not city) port to approx location of Lubeck (on Baltic coast)

Hungary
remove Brasov and replace with Gyulafehérvár (no change to region)

Kievan Rus
replace Zhitomyr with Vladimir-Volonskii
replace Bryansk with Chernigov (no change to regions).
relocate Pereslavl

Khwarezm
remove Rayy (no change to region)

Leon
rename of faction to Leon-Castile
add Burgos (no change to region)

Lithuania
none

Moors
rename faction to Murabitim or Almoravids
rename Seville to Badajoz (no change to region)
add new Seville region with land taken from Silves and Cordoba
relocate Granada to north of mountains

Norway
add Oslo region (no change to region)

Novgorod
remove Moscow and Yaroslavl
add Pskov

Papal States
none

Poland
add Wroclaw (no change to region)
remove Halych
change Plock from town to castle (adjust region to take part of Thorn ?)
add chunk of Halych to Krakow

Portugal
replace Oporto with Braga (no change to region)

Scotland
remove Inverness (no change to region)

Sicily
add Bari and Durazzo

Turks
remove Tbilisi, Mosul
replace Qarisiya with Ar-Raggah (possibly adjust region)

Venice
remove Ragusa (no change to region)
take eastern chunk of Venice region to form new region Carinthia (capital Trieste)


Rebels
add Yelabuga, Kazan, Bulgar, Zaragoza, Barcelona, Rayy, Tbilisi, Mosul, Inverness,
add Halych (adjust region to give western chunk to Krakow and add NW chunk of Baia to Halych)
remove Oleshe, Azaq, Astrakhan (to Cumans),
replace Benghazi with Barqa (no change to region)
replace Moscow with Vladimir (no change to region)
replace Yaroslavl with Rostov (no change to region)
replace Bern with Zurich (no change to region)
replace Thorn with Gdansk (shrink region)
replace Adana with Sis (no change to region)
replace Bruges with Ghent (no change to region)
relocate Smolensk and Polotsk to more accurate locations
adjust Zagreb region to reach Adriatic Sea - port at Fiume
merge Kazan and Khlynov regions
create new region from eastern section of venice - Trieste

(if abbasid faction added:
Mosul Diyarbakir Tabriz indepedent
Baghdad Basra etc Abbasids)
(or just change Seljuks to Abbasids?)

Check that faction_creator assignments are those most appropriate.


Improving regions
-----------------

making minimum town level - town not village - so the AI can start building on T1 on not waste time and money on upgrading walls.

giving every settlement at least a barracks building so troops can be recruited for garrisons.

giving ports to locations known to have proper ports in 1100.

giving a minimum of a corn exchange to significant market towns and cities.

adding roads in areas known to have had road building where there are currently none.

adding religious buildings to settlements so all have at least basic minimum.


Garrisons
---------

making sure only units that can be recruited by a faction are available to settlements at start of game. (if necessary improve barracks etc.)

Possibly change composition of some garrisons (perhaps reduce some, increase others in line with what buildings are available.


Characters
----------

Move known incorrect locations for characters

Mercenaries
-----------

Change availability of mercenaries to more accurately reflect unit availability - both geographical and temporal.


Rebels
------

Ensure rebels are at least geographically appropriate.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: I would prefer to begin with if people did NOT simply stick amended files in this thread. Rather it is for making suggestions for such a mod. Whilst it is "Work in Progress"
It's better to simply state your case for any particular changes (evidence based for preference) and let people make their own changes if they agree with them.

----------------
useful source maps:
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...Southeast.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...Northeast.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...Southwest.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...Northwest.html

[Fair Prince]

Good proposal, Roz, though I have a question here: are you planning to add this to Seether's AFR (the mod that currently determines the settlements' owners) or it'll be your very own submod?

[Caesar Clivus]

In BftB2's early campaign, I gave Novgorod only Novgorod and Pskov. Technically Moscow shouldn't even be on the early campaign map (which is why I replaced it in BftB2's early campaign

[RollingWave]

a few thought.

A. making sure that every faction at least start with a freaking diplomat! (see Lithuania)

B. pretty much every rebel faction on the Iberian should have been in Almoravid's hand (including Zaragosa, but we could generally set a low garrison and/or high unrest to balance things out. and this should also force both Aragon and Portugal to go to war with the Almoravid right off the bat. (obviously Burgos should be in the Castillian hand)

C. Valencia was the only exception, but El Cid actually died in 1099 and the city fell to Almoravid in 1102. should we just have it start as a Castillian state ?(since Cid was still nominally a Castillian vassal, and when his wife abandoned the city it was ordered to be burn by Alfonso) with the Almoravid's first objective changed to Valencia instead of Seville? (which would reflect historical reality as well, since they took it in 1102)

D. Consider making Fes a castle and Mellia a town (though I guess this would be pretty pointless if you release your full mod, but just in the context of the current 6.3), mostly out of strategic context, since right now both Almoravid castle on NA is ridiculasly undeveloped which often causes them to lose on that front because they have limited unit base and even the more developed of the two (Alger) have a sinificantly lower population than Tunis. this would also give the Moors a last line of defense so they're not as likely to be wiped out if they lose Iberia or lose North African if they lose Alger (the later seem to be happening a bit too often.) (also, am I the only one who doesn't know exactly what town Mellia is suppose to be? is it modern day Tlemcen or Oujda ???)

E. either give Acre to the Crusader states to start (they captured it in 1104) or at least weaken it's garrison by A LOT (right now it's VERY strong ) so that it is likely that they take it soon

F. Kerak wasn't around until the Crusaders build it (though it happened later .. in around 1140s).... so might as well let them start with it? and instead make Acre the first objective?

As for Genoa, in 6.2 wasn't the faction Genoa& Pisa ? which would make more sense given their starting position. and like wise why is it just Leon now?

[Gorrrrrn]

(obviously Burgos should be in the Castillian hand) and like wise why is it just Leon now?

- I've no idea why actually. Burgos was capital of castile and the two were joined in 1100.

F. Kerak wasn't around until the Crusaders build it (though it happened later .. in around 1140s).... so might as well let them start with it? and instead make Acre the first objective?

if we're being historical I'd say leave it rebel for now.

E. either give Acre to the Crusader states to start (they captured it in 1104) or at least weaken it's garrison by A LOT (right now it's VERY strong ) so that it is likely that they take it soon

ditto

D. Consider making Fes a castle and Mellia a town (though I guess this would be pretty pointless if you release your full mod, but just in the context of the current 6.3), mostly out of strategic context, since right now both Almoravid castle on NA is ridiculasly undeveloped which often causes them to lose on that front because they have limited unit base and even the more developed of the two (Alger) have a sinificantly lower population than Tunis. this would also give the Moors a last line of defense so they're not as likely to be wiped out if they lose Iberia or lose North African if they lose Alger (the later seem to be happening a bit too often.) (also, am I the only one who doesn't know exactly what town Mellia is suppose to be? is it modern day Tlemcen or Oujda ???)

Can't say I've ever understood the basis for the castle / town split - that said Fes was a major city. So I think we should not change that. Algiers could be buffed - better buildings, walls. (if it was under control of Almoravids in 1100 - not checked that yet -maps not detailed enough.) Problem Moors face is a hyper-active Sicily which gobbles up north africa, aided and abetted by Genoa. If we made Genoa just Genoa, and left Pisa and Sardinia independent it would help the Moors I think, but maybe not enough. I've seen the Moors expand quite well early on, so maybe downgrade the christian Iberian faction settlements? Starting Aragon (as Aragon-Navarra) with just Pamplona might help. Zaragoza didn't get captured by Almorasvids until 1110 and then lost to Aragon 8 years later. So making it and Barcelona rebel (ie independent seems the best choice.) Adding perm forts might help - but only if the AI uses them.

Valencia is best as another independent in 1100 and maybe we should add Murcia? Almoravid control was debatable in some areas - the islamic area had been a network of fiercely independent ta'ifa kingdoms
wikipedia has a neat map and list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa
and how far the ALmoravids had control over them after the invasion I'm not sure.
Sevilla (ie Badajoz) should be ALmoravid.

What needs to happen generally is a slow down in unit recruitment - we have a situation where players get loads of money and armies and things happen very quickly.
And reduce income.

[Point Blank]

I thought AW's 1100 mod took care of a lot of this.

[Gorrrrrn]

But has AW released a version for SS6.3?
(he's been quiet of late - I'll PM him to see if there's anything he can bring to the party.)

[Ponti]

If u are removing Galicia (Halych) from Poland they are start without any castle,U think about more historically position and I agreed with U that but it is game.I think that map need serious reworking here especially in Eastern Europe.The best solution to Poland is make one more province I think Greater Poland as a core of this nation with Poznan settlement city,change Plock to the Castle and change settlement of Thorn castle to Gdansk/Danzig as a rich city (In Early Era as Rebel settlement) In Late Era for Teutonic Order and remove Riga from TO make a rebel settlement here..I think some provinces at the East like Khlynov or Embi are not necessary .Steppe Provinces between Khorezm or Cumans make bigger this area have too more provinces and for 90% players the most important is Europe.Also I will be glad to saw more provinces between Hungary and Byzantium at Balkans area

[Gorrrrrn]

Ponti - I tend to agree about Khlynov - I don' think it existed in 1100 - and the region doesn't add much to the map.
Embi does serve as some sort of boundary between cumans and khwarezm.
Reassigning an existing Polish settlement as a castle if we lose Galicia is do-able.

(I don't know enough about the late era to comment.)

Places that should start with ports:
Roskilde
Marseille
Basra
al_Aqaba
Syracuse
Eikundarsund

[Ponti]

Rozanov ,when U are remove Halych as a Polish castle - it is good historically point because this area was once time in Kievan Rus hand once in Poland and ca. 1250 a.d was Lithuanian. U need to make Plock as a castle it will be much more historically accurate and remove Thorn as a settlement replacing this city to Gdansk (one of the richest cities in Europe that time).One more province for Poland will be great (Greater Poland with Poznan ) especially because Cracow province is quite huge province,Gdansk is placed at Baltic sea so more at north than Thorn and we have space to add new province,but if it is not possible add Wroclaw to Poland and we have same situation than now 2 cities and castle at the beginning of game.

[Chees3]

I think that removing Inverness will weaken Scotland too much,gameplaywise.The English already have a strong economy

[RollingWave]

I think that removing Inverness will weaken Scotland too much,gameplaywise.The English already have a strong economy

that's more of a problem with the English economy than the Scots starting weakness though right now it's a bit crazy how England is always 1 or 2 along side Byzantium in economy off the bat, uh huh that's realistic .

[Gorrrrrn]

simple answer to the scots problem is for them to start in alliance with england (which they were in 1100) and change the faction standings so they are less likely to want to start a suicidal war.

york needs nerfing - the area took ages to recover from the harrying of the north.

more amendments:

adana - add to crusader states - apparently conquered by tancred in 1197 and held by crusaders
until 1132 when it was captured by the Armenian kingdom of cilicia

bari - add to sicily - add port and christian church

add port to visby, bordeaux

[Fair Prince]

Roz, I found two interesting articles during my research that may be useful to you:
- The official site of Plock claims the city was the capital of Poland under the rule of Władysław Herman (1079-1102)
- According to Ghent's Wikipedia page the city was the biggest in Europe after Paris until the 13th century (there's no citation however)

I wonder if you'll make map (descr_regions) updates as well as it could use some minor corrections:
- Bruges could be replaced by Ghent if the statement above is indeed true, and moved a bit towards southeast
- Gyulafehérvár could replace Brasov as the capital of Transylvania and moved a little towards west
- Yaroslavl should be replaced by Suzdal as the capital of the Rostov-Suzdal region and moved towards south
- Kutaisi should be moved a bit towards east as it's current location suits Batumi more

[Caesar Clivus]

- Yaroslavl should be replaced by Suzdal as the capital of the Rostov-Suzdal region and moved towards south

For BftB2, I replaced Yaroslavl with Rostov and Moscow with Vladimir. I also replaced Zhytomyr with Vladimir-Volonskii and moved Chernigov, Pereslavl, Smolensk and Polotsk to more accurate positions.

[Fair Prince]

For BftB2, I replaced Yaroslavl with Rostov and Moscow with Vladimir. I also replaced Zhytomyr with Vladimir-Volonskii and moved Chernigov, Pereslavl, Smolensk and Polotsk to more accurate positions.

Caesar, could you perhaps help us out then?
I bet the players would warmly welcome a little SS 6.3 'map patch' with your corrections plus some of the ideas mentioned before.

[Caesar Clivus]

Caesar, could you perhaps help us out then?
I bet the players would warmly welcome a little SS 6.3 'map patch' with your corrections plus some of the ideas mentioned before.

I'd be more than happy to supply my map files

[Gorrrrrn]

looks like we need the services of a re-mapper!
(I have no experience with doing maps)

as for Hungarian places -seems like every SS that gets issued is wrong by some accounts - wrong towns, wrong spelling.
the BftB changes sound excellent.

[Gorrrrrn]

CC - many thanks!
--
improvements to resources also welcome.

eg - as well as giving Bari a port from the start, it was also a major slave trading location.
also Italy did a lot of trading in timber.
I'd remove coal from south wales (far too early for it) and replace with iron for forest of dean (nearer to england in south wales)
(actually it is england but south wales on our map.)
remove coal from Aberdeen.

[chris7ian]

I think in the early era campaign the HRE should have Ancona, Dijon, and Lyons. Also probably should have Bern. If you do late campaign you should remove Sicily as they were no longer existent and the HRE should control all of their lands and Ancona should be Papal States. Plus Dijon. Lyons and Marseille should be HRE not French.