Anniversary of 1929 Hebron massacre

[Gromovnik]

On August 23 and 24 1929 Arab mob killed 67 jewish residents of Hebron, viciously mutilating the bodies in the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
somehow this doesn't fit in fairytales about "evil nazi racist zionist beasts" and their "criminal occupation" of Palestine...

[Dr. Croccer]

On August 23 and 24 1929 Arab mob killed 67 jewish residents of Hebron, viciously mutilating the bodies in the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
somehow this doesn't fit in fairytales about "evil nazi racist zionist beasts" and their "criminal occupation" of Palestine...

Considering that conflict between Jewish and Arab militias was hardly a rarity and the Arabs received the brunt of it. Ten years later about 10% of the male Palestinian population would be casualties, prisoners or exiles of a brutal 3 year civil war in which barely a hundred Jews were killed in comparison, in no small part thanks to the actions of Jewish militias. Acts of collective punishment were common: the Palestinians were collectively fined a million pound as retribution for the revolt; entire villages were razed to the ground, including Jaffa in which 6.000 people were made homeless. Thousands of men were held prisoner in disgusting pens in which disease was rife for days on end without any form of trial.

And 7 years after that Irgun bombed the King David Hotel, killing 91, mostly British military personnel who had been protecting the Jewish communities.

Another thing you don''t mention is that hundreds of Jews survived that massacre because their Arab neighbours hid them from the insurgents.

Sixty-seven Jews were killed and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked; nineteen local Arab families saved 435 Jews by hiding them in their houses at great risk to themselves

In August 1929, Yonah Molchadsky was nearing the end of her pregnancy when, on August 23, the disturbing news reached them that there had been attempts to harm Jews in Jerusalem. The following day, Yonah started to feel labor pains and a doctor was called. "Don't give birth yet, wait a bit," he told her. But the pains got worse and the birth approached, so the family went to the neighboring family, an Arab family, who put them up in their basement. As Yonah gave birth to her second daughter in the basement of the Arab family's house, the masses outside began looking for Jews. Yonah related, after many years of silence, that the mob came to the home of the Arab family, looking for the Molchadskys. "We have already killed our Jews," the Molchadskys' hosts and saviors told the mob, who believed them and departed

Nor do you mention that, in retribution forthis massacre, the surrounding Arab villages and Arabs in Hebron, many of whom had helped hide Jews, were collectively fined a great deal of money. Hebron alone 14.000 pounds.

But that doesn't fit in with the fairytale that Israel was only ever the victim, that no harm was ever done to the Palestinians and that Palestinians were and are blood-thristy anti-semites.

[Bruriya]

To Dr. Crosser.

"...Ten years later about 10% of the male Palestinian population would be casualties, prisoners or exiles of a brutal 3 year civil war in which barely a hundred Jews were killed in comparison, in no small part thanks to the actions of Jewish militias. Acts of collective punishment were common: the Palestinians were collectively fined a million pound as retribution for the revolt; entire villages were razed to the ground, including Jaffa in which 6.000 people were made homeless. Thousands of men were held prisoner in disgusting pens in which disease was rife for days on end without any form of trial...

It is very unsuccessful example. After all in this "revolt" Arabs (but not Jews) AGAIN were aggressors, and too very cruel and unscrupulous, maliciously killing the Jewish CHILDREN and women and proud of it ( You consider, what Jews haven't the right to protect themselves, and should be, how sheep on a slaughter-house?!

And the majority of the Arabs killed in this revolt, have been killed by Britains; and you write as if all of them were killed by Jews. Why you so roughly lie?!

And 7 years after that Irgun bombed the King David Hotel, killing 91, mostly British military personnel who had been protecting the Jewish communities...

Yes, Jews have arranged this explosion to prevent Britains to study the grasped documents of the Jewish underground. They have warned the English authorities that those evacuated the personnel (in "King David" there was a staff of the British armies, it was at all "the peace hotel" ) But Britains have silly and haughtily refused. Why you blame only Jews, but not Britains for this tragedy?



By the way, about "British military personnel who had been protecting the Jewish communities". During the Arabian anti-Jewish pogroms in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936-39, Britains protected Jews very little, showing criminal connivance to thugs (and any English soldiers, the officer or the official haven't been punished for this connivance.) for example, here about massacre in Hebron 1929:
And they still dared to be indignant that Jews in 1944-47 helped them (Britains) against the Jewish underground a little!

Another thing you don''t mention is that hundreds of Jews survived that massacre because their Arab neighbours hid them from the insurgents..

19 (nineteen) Arabian families from Hebron rescued Jews. And thousand thugs. Compare a proportion of righteous persons and villains in this Sodom

But that doesn't fit in with the fairytale that Israel was only ever the victim, that no harm was ever done to the Palestinians and that Palestinians were and are blood-thristy anti-semites

Jews usually killed Arabs: protecting the community, families of neighbors or personally itself; revenging for murders of Jews (especially civilians) Arabs. BUT Arabs have killed the majority of Jews simply to expel them from Palestine. You sincerely don't understand this difference and equalize defenders and avengers with aggressors?!

The barrier runs straight through cities, cuting cities off. The farmers can't access their crops, or sell them in the city because of it. Thousands of lives are ruined.

In it the Palestinian terrorists and the terrorist authorities compelling Israel to protect of by this wall are guilty. But you again accuse a victim, instead of the criminal.
You also have "forgotten" that when the United Nations in 1948 have divided the country almost fifty-fifty between Arabs and Jews, Jews have agreed, but Arabs began war and wanted suit the second Holocaust. If they have won not only there would be no Israel, but hundred thousand local Jews would be killed You think, what we should give to such "humane" and "fair" people the state near to us, what it will increase safety of Israel?!

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department.
"The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it."
-Ze'ev Jabotinsky
"Don't worry, we [Israel] control the United States."-Ariel Sharon.

You aren't ashamed to quote so frank and ridiculous lie?!
You, of course, can't result the Israeli sources of these citations because they aren't present

[Trey]

Yes, Jews have arranged this explosion to prevent Britains to study the grasped documents of the Jewish underground. They have warned the English authorities that those evacuated the personnel (in "King David" there was a staff of the British armies, it was at all "the peace hotel" ) But Britains have silly and haughtily refused. Why you blame only Jews, but not Britains for this tragedy?

Nice necro. I see that we are getting places here. Aside from the fact that the British favored the Jewish settlers throughout the mandatory period, I like how your line of logic can be extrapolated to mean that those killed in suicide bombings throughout Israel are at fault because Israel has not withdrawn from the occupied territories. But Kind David Hotel is OK because it's your side, right?

[Bruriya]

Aside from the fact that the British favored the Jewish settlers throughout the mandatory period...

About what you speak?! Britishs:
- Didn't fulfill the duty to protect local Jews; as a result of hundred Jews have been killed by the Arabian villains with the connivance of Britishs
Read, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
- forbade Jews to hold the weapon and to create the self-defense organizations. It very much facilitated to Arabs murder of Jews.
- Left set of the Arabian thugs and murderers unpunished or gave them inadequately soft punishments. As a result Arabs thought: "it is possible to kill Jews", and continued
- Rigidly limited the Jewish immigration to "Palestine" (Eretz Israel), but didn't stir the Arabian immigration; as a result of hundred of thousands Arabs from Egypt, Syria, Libya and other countries has moved to Palestine because here was, thanks to Jews there was a work and rather high standard of living. Now their descendants sincerely consider Palestine as the, and Jews - invaders (as it is ridiculous )
And now in England aren't ashamed of this injustice and dishonesty of the fathers and grandfathers; simply almost nobody knows about it

http://www.bu.edu/bostonia/spring01/land/ ...Another betrayal by some British officials was the attempt in April 1920 to encourage Arab attacks on Jews during the Muslim holiday of Nebi Musa, which that year coincided with Easter. Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen, the political officer of Major General Edmund Allenby, the commander of the British military administration in Palestine, recorded in his diary that Colonel Bertie Waters-Taylor, Allenby’s aide, told the Mufti of Jerusalem that he “had a great opportunity . . . to show the world that the Arabs of Palestine would not tolerate Jewish domination . . . that Zionism was unpopular not only with the Palestine administration but in Whitehall; and if disturbances of sufficient violence occurred in Jerusalem at Easter, both General Bols and General Allenby would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish Home.”

The day of the riots all British troops and Jewish police were ordered out of Jerusalem’s Old City. After the attacks began, British troops barred hastily assembled Jewish self-defense forces from entering the Old City. Meinertzhagen protested all the way to the foreign secretary in Whitehall, Lord Curzon. Allenby threatened to resign if Meinertzhagen’s protest was accepted. It was not...

[motiv-8]

So, Pannonius, forgetting a moment the embarrassment that Dr. Croccer handed your poor excuse for a history thread, could we all expect another thread by you on the 16th of next month to commemmorate the Shabra and Shatila massacres? Perhaps another thread in February for the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre?

It would only make sense, because you're just sharing general history and nothing else, right?

[Gromovnik]

So, Pannonius, forgetting a moment the embarrassment that Dr. Croccer handed your poor excuse for a history thread, could we all expect another thread by you on the 16th of next month to commemmorate the Shabra and Shatila massacres? Perhaps another thread in February for the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre?

It would only make sense, because you're just sharing general history and nothing else, right?

here's a pro tip: you can start threads too, any subject you like. I don't see why the victims of this massacre shouldn't be remembered?

[motiv-8]

here's a pro tip: you can start threads too, any subject you like. I don't see why the victims of this massacre shouldn't be remembered?

But you didn't answer the question. If your intention is just to act as a remembrance of the victims of this spat of violence, as we're all sure you merely intended to do, then why wouldn't you also start a thread for Sabra and Shatila or Cave of the Patriarchs? I mean, they were horrific acts of violence, too, the former especially more grievous than this, so it only stands to reason that someone such as yourself with such pure intentions of commemmorating a tragedy would also act upon those events as well. Right?

Also, a pro-tip for you since you are clearly in need of one more than I: learn how to start a thread, especially in the history forum. You didn't explain this event at all. You didn't give any background information, you didn't investigate any causal or contextual relationships, you didn't explain at all how this is important to the history of the region or peoples involved. In fact, another poster had to do your job for you.

Just some friendly advice for when you make your Sabra-Shatila thread in three weeks. Hopefully that one will be better.

[PointOfViewGun]

But you didn't answer the question. If your intention is just to act as a remembrance of the victims of this spat of violence, as we're all sure you merely intended to do, then why wouldn't you also start a thread for Sabra and Shatila or Cave of the Patriarchs? I mean, they were horrific acts of violence, too, the former especially more grievous than this, so it only stands to reason that someone such as yourself with such pure intentions of commemmorating a tragedy would also act upon those events as well. Right?

I have heard of the Cave of Patriarch massacre but never heard of the Sabra and Shatila massacre. It's rather sad to see how the nation of a people that suffered deeply supporting such acts. It's just despicable.

[Martian]

Some days ago we had the anniversary of the crusaders massacring hundreds of Jews during the First crusade also

[pannonian]

Given the OP and the direction the thread has taken, there seems to be little intention to discuss history, with political discussion seeming to be the intention.

Away from the VV and into the Academy.

[Jingles]

The only reason we should commemorate the deaths of islamic thugs is as a celebration - victory of freedom and democracy over tyranny!

[James.Bond]

The only reason we should commemorate the deaths of islamic thugs is as a celebration - victory of freedom and democracy over tyranny!

20% of the Arab population in Palestine was Christian at the beginning of the 20th century...

[Gromovnik]

20% of the Arab population in Palestine was Christian at the beginning of the 20th century...

and how many are there now?

[James.Bond]

and how many are there now?

i think around 2% of historical palestine (including modern day israel and the occupied territories). they mostly fled in 1948 and 1967

[Dr. Croccer]

and how many are there now?

Not much, thanks to war, discrimination and economic situation.

http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm

The Impact of the 1948 and 1967 Wars

But Europeans, missionaries and others, cannot be blamed for all the ills of the Middle East even though some Europeans can be blamed for the most of the ills that afflicted the Holy Land in the twentieth century. Palestinian Christians, an integral part of their society, suffered the consequences of the intensive Arab Jewish communal conflict in the first half of the twentieth century When t communal conflict came to a head in martial confrontation in 1948, Arab Palestinian society was forced to re-organise. Many Palestinian refugees, including Christians, established themselves in the newly emerging Amman capital of Jordan, as traders, professionals and businessmen. Others opted leave to North American and Arab Gulf destinations. Those who went to Arab Gulf countries eventually came back to retire in their hometowns such as B Sahour, the town best known for The Shepherds' Field. Others who opted to North America and further destinations established themselves and the families there and became diaspora communities with the usual sentiment attachments to the homeland and its fading memories.

The 1967 War heralded drastic changes for the whole of Palestinian society in the West Bank and Gaza. Economic, social, organisational and politic changes took place amidst mounting tensions between the Palestinians, on t one hand, and Israeli military authorities and Jewish settlers, on the other. With these changes and with the precarious population balance between Arabs and Jews, there was a growing realisation among some Israelis and Palestinians of the need to work towards a political solution that would end the occupation and secure the basic rights of Palestinians. Christians, tending towards the mainstream and secular political organisation, took part in the efforts of their society to end occupation and to establish Palestinian national rights. But Christians, with their middle class background and occupational preferences, got increasingly sensitive to the instability and uncertainty which accompanied long Israeli military rule. Palestinian Christians, judging from the rate of emigration among them, which was double the national rate between 1967 and 1993, were especially susceptible to the practices of Israeli occupation authorities as more than 12,000 of them left East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip to go abroad.

The Intifada and the Oslo Accords

The intense political relationships between Israelis and Palestinians came to a head-on clash with the outburst of the Intifada in December 1987.Christians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip actively participated in it; some became martyrs, others were imprisoned and still others had to hide from Israeli pursuit. Christian communities reacted collectively as they pressed, like other Palestinians, for an end of occupation and for a new relationship with the Israelis based on mutual respect and recognition of rights. The Intifada itself, as perceived by Palestinians and their leaders, was a call to make peace with Israel based on the presence of two peoples on the land. Besides, the Intifada made Palestinians proud that they could confront Israelis as equals.

The Intifada and its success were key factors that made possible the negotiations leading to the Oslo accords. With these accords, the stage was set for the political transformation and the natural excitement which accompanied it. Palestinian Christians, like other Palestinians, have shaped events and have been equally affected by them. The time of transition and transformation now called for an optimistic stand and a departure from the past and a break with it. But would the time of transformation and transition be read alike by Palestinians in different walks of life? And how would expectations of a new order and of the future in general, be affected by various economic and social indicators? Would Christians with their educational, occupational and income profile react in much the same way as other Palestinians?

But why do Christians leave at a higher rate than the rest of the population? The answer is not simple as it involves interrelated factors and their mutual effects on one another. First, the socio-economic characteristics of the Christians which make them more likely candidates for emigration. Second, the fact that emigration is not a new phenomenon for the Christians and that there has been a relatively long tradition of emigration, particularly to distant "Christian" lands. Third, Christians are more sensitive than the general population, to bad economic and political conditions, particularly if they perceive that the prospects for advancement are not forthcoming. Regardless of how one explains this sensitivity, it has to do with the Christian demographic, economic, educational and occupational profile.

Some conclusions from the 1993 survey throw light on factors which render Palestinian Christians more prone than the rest of the population, to take the difficult decision of leaving.
There is clearly a relationship between the higher rates of departures and the overall bad or worsening economic and political situation during particular years.
The process of emigration for whole families starts when one of the children goes abroad to study, marry and/or work and eventually pulls the whole family to him/her.
Those religious communities with higher percentage of household members abroad are more likely to have their members exhibit intention to emigrate than those communities with lower percentages. A closer look at the religious communities with high a percentage of immediate family members abroad reveals the following percentages in descending order: Armenian Orthodox 61%; Syriac Orthodox 50%; Greek Orthodox 32%; Latins 28%; Moslems 23%; Greek Catholics 15%; and Protestants 8%.

When intention to emigrate is examined, the Greek Orthodox, Armenian and Syriac Orthodox exhibit the highest percentage of those wanting to leave. The Protestants have the lowest percentage while the Latins and Greek Catholics are placed in the middle. One can therefore, argue that in principle, the smaller the religious community the more it is likely that members of this community will choose to leave. It is appropriate hence to provide some demographic data and indicators on the size and distribution of the various denominations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Size and Distribution of Palestinian Christians Palestinian Christians are found in over fifteen different localities with concentration in the urban centres of Bethlehem, Jerusalem and Ramallah. Following is the distribution of Palestinian Christians by denomination in the various localities of the West Bank and Gaza:

Denomination-----Aboud-----Bethlehem-----Beit-Jala-----Beit-Sahour
Greek Orthodox ------536 ------------2133 ------------4733 --------------5749
Latins --------------------443-------------2934-------------1116 ---------------919
Greek Catholics------10---------------480--------------134-------------------528
Syriacs -------------------------------------902--------------120------------------44
Protestants--------------28--------------110---------------240----------------- 95
Total----------------------1017------------6559------------6343---------------7335
Denomination----- BirZeit----- EinArik----- Gaza----- Jenin
Greek Orthodox---- 918----------- 211-------- 2207------- 169
Latins-------------------1104--------- 117----------210----------327
Greek Catholics-----39----------------------------22----------- 41
Syriacs-----------------17
Protestants---------- 80------------- 40
Total------------------2158---------- 328--------- 2479--------- 537
Denomination----- Jericho----- Jerusalem----- Jifna----- Nablus
Greek Orthodox------ 256--------- 3500------------- 272-------- 436
Latins-------------------- 164---------- 3900------------- 369--------- 291
Greek Catholics------ 81----------- 500--------------- 8------------- 64
Syriacs------------------- 22----------- 250
Protestants ------------12------------- 850-----------------------------250
Armenians* ---------------------------- 1500 - -
Copts* ------------------------------------------------------ 250 - -
Ethiopians* ------------------------------- 60 - -
Maronites* ------------------------------- 100 - -
Total-------------------- 535------------- 10,910--------- 649---------- 1041
(*The figures are inclusive of the West Bank, but the major concentration is in Jerusalem.)
Denomination-----Ramallah-----Taybeh----- Zababdeh
Greek Orthodox----- 4000------------ 72------------- 631
Latins---------------------1100---------- 872------------ 1302
Greek Catholics-------- 650--------- 166------------- 125
Syriacs--------------------- 100-----------------------------43
Protestants---------------- 600---------------------------150
Total------------------------- 6450------ 1110------------ 2251
The total number of Palestinian Christians is 49,702 distributed among the various denominations as follows:
Greek Orthodox---- 25,835------------ 52.0%
Latins------------------- 15,168------------ 30.5%
Greek Catholics---- 2848--------------- 5.7%
Protestants---------- 2443---------------- 4.9%
Syriacs--------------- 1498----------------- 3.0%
Armenians---------- 1500----------------- 3.0%
Copts----------------- 250------------------- 0.5%
Ethiopians---------- 60--------------------- 0.1%
Maronites----------- 100-------------------- 0.2%

(Source: Christians in the Holy Land, Edited by Michael Prior and William Taylor, the World of Islam Festival Trust, London, 1994.)

The Decline of Jerusalem's Christians:A Sad Example of Dwindling

Numbers Jerusalem, the city where the "Mother Church" originated, provides a dramatic example of the effects of the dwindling numbers of its Christians. While Jerusalem's Christians are blessed with probably the highest "church per capita" in the world with one church for every 177 Christians, the decline in the number of Jerusalem Christians continues. Emigration is responsible for this decline as the political conditions, especially since 1967, have pushed many Palestinians out of their country. The extent of the Christian decline is best understood by the fact that in 1944 there were 29,350 Christians living in the city; today, Jerusalem's Christian population is only 35.5% of what it used to be 50 years ago." There is concern by some, both Church officials and experts, that if preventative and curative steps are not undertaken, then the dwindling of Christian numbers will continue unabated eventually causing the disappearance of community life in some of Jerusalem's churches.

It certainly wasn't because of Muslim pressure. There's little evidence for such religious tension.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4499668.stm

Christian-Muslim relationships are largely peaceful and Christians have reached senior positions in the Palestinian Authority, although some Palestinian Christians complain of harassment and discrimination.

Excellent Christian-Moslem Relations

In order to better understand or contextualise the Palestinian Christian response, there is need to reaffirm the traditionally excellent relations between Christians and their Moslem neighbours. This tradition of good Christian-Moslem relations has evolved through centuries of coexistence and exchange in the cities of Jerusalem, Nazareth, Bethlehem, Ramallah and in the rural areas such as Zababdeh, BirZeit and other towns and villages where Moslems and Christians live side by side and interact in their pursuit of daily pre-occupations and concerns. A number of factors have historically contributed to this tradition of excellent Moslem-Christian relations:4

First, the modem history of Palestine with the Arab-Israeli conflict affecting the entire population equally, with the experience of dispersal and loss of homeland.

Second, the contribution which Christian institutions, mostly Western, have made since the 19th century to the education, health and other needs of the population irrespective of religion.

Third, the presence of the Holy Places, and the recognition by Islam of the centrality of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth to Christianity. This recognition is best crystallised in Caliph 'Umar's "al-Uhda al-'Umariyya" which was his guarantee of the safety of Christians and their holy places in 638 when Islam entered the country.5

Fourth, the urban nature of the Christian population and its living in religiously mixed Christian-Moslem neighbourhoods, thus emphasising openness and neighbourly relations. In those instances where Christians lived in villages and rural areas, relations were always characterised by friendly co-operation and communal sharing.

Fifth, Christians take equal pride in their national and religious roots. Being a good Christian has never detracted from being a good Palestinian nationalist, and vice-versa.

Sixth, the Ottoman Miller system which recognised the autonomy of the Christian communities to run their own internal affairs, especially those related to religious and civil matters.

[Adar]

I think that a major mistake is that we consider the middle east conflict to be about post WW2 immigrant (european) jews and native arabs.

The fact is that there were significant populations of jews, muslims and christians that lived in (relative) under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The religious massacres in the middle east during the 20th century are pretty much the same process that we experienced during the 16th and 17th century in Europe.

In Europe this was an all out war between nations where the central government often was powerful enough to wipe out their religious minorities (catholics in Sweden, protestants in France etc). In the middle east the situaton is far more complicated since all out war largely have been prevented (which in the short term of course is positive).

In the Palestine area it started out as a low intensity civil war between the native populations of jews, muslims and christians as soon as the Ottoman Empire fell apart. World War 2 greatly changed the way this war was fought since the British became too weak to supress the civil war and many non-middle eastern Jews felt it was necessary to establish a safe homeland or at least die trying.

What I try to communicate is that the troubles between Jews, Muslims (and now wiped out/expelled Christians) started when the Ottoman Empire fell, the British did their best to take the Ottomans place but failed due to lack of local support and WW2. The creation of Israel and Palestine are a part of this process, not the start of it.

[Phier]

The only reason we should commemorate the deaths of islamic thugs is as a celebration - victory of freedom and democracy over tyranny!

You know jingle there is a theory in psychology that if you purposefully try to think like a certain way, you start to act that way for real. Just a warning

[Jingles]

Well I survived my stint of BNP worship during the election. Though of course, I was acting that time. This is totally genuine, I assure you. I've seen the light, and St. Reagan was the one shining it.

[Phier]

Well I survived my stint of BNP worship during the election. Though of course, I was acting that time. This is totally genuine, I assure you. I've seen the light, and St. Reagan was the one shining it.

*sigh* If only your conversion were true, but alas I know it is false, for if it were true, you would feel such longing for becoming part of America that you would have already purchased your tickets to come to the promised land and every moment before that departure would bring you nothing but pain.



Truly a God among men.