Diplomatic oddities

**Coprolite** · August 22, 2010, 03:51 PM

Hi, first post here after lurking for years... yay

Anyways, I'm playing 6.3 on VH/VH with BGR enabled and Savage AI.
Just a few turns into my current England campaign Scotland tried to conquer York and failed.. badly. A few turns later Edinburgh and Aberdeen were in english hands, yet King Henry had obviously underestimated the scots' stubbornness... offers of a ceasefire were considered to be "very demanding", even offering to return Aberdeen as a sign of goodwill in exchange for the ceasefire was considered "very demanding".

This already seemed odd, given the huge strategical advantage England had at that point... but ok, scottish stubbornness or something.

But, as my diplomat tried to negotiate the "very demanding" ceasefire, he wasn't immediately beheaded.. instead the scots were open for another proposal. This time around though, even the hint of a possible ceasefire was considered to be "very generous". The Scots were even willing to pay for it. It seemed as if the current strategical situation (army size, number of territories) was not being considered by the AI before a second diplomatic proposal.. sorry if this is a known bug or doesn't relate to SS or 6.3, it never happened to me before though.

**Alpha Zeke** · August 22, 2010, 04:04 PM

Hmm. That normally never happens to me. It would be very generous the first time around. Funny how if you overwhelm the AI on a war they started, then there like SURE HERE TAKE SOME MONEY AND DON"T COME BACK!

But if you start the war. Well Scottish stubbornness and all that.

**bɑne** · August 22, 2010, 04:18 PM

Have you reloaded in between those offers?

**Coprolite** · August 22, 2010, 04:26 PM

No, it was actually in the same diplomacy screen.. just a second proposal.
I offered the ceasefire which was considered to be "very demanding" and it was turned down (of course). Their demeanor remained "neutral" though and they would listen to another proposal.
This time around the ceasefire offer was suddenly "very generous" and they accepted happily.

**Alpha Zeke** · August 22, 2010, 04:34 PM

"we have no qualms with this plan! we accept!" Maybe thats another language though...

**Sanderlicious** · August 22, 2010, 04:47 PM

Through thorough investigation of your description I have found the precise technical error involved: Glitch.

But seriously I have never run into that problem before.

And as Historydude pointed out, the AI is usually begging for mercy when I start to come down on them

**Alpha Zeke** · August 22, 2010, 05:01 PM

**RabidSheepLegion** · August 23, 2010, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Historydude

lol plus 1 rep

**Hadrian I** · August 22, 2010, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Coprolite

Hi, first post here after lurking for years... yay

Anyways, I'm playing 6.3 on VH/VH with BGR enabled and Savage AI.
Just a few turns into my current England campaign Scotland tried to conquer York and failed.. badly. A few turns later Edinburgh and Aberdeen were in english hands, yet King Henry had obviously underestimated the scots' stubbornness... offers of a ceasefire were considered to be "very demanding", even offering to return Aberdeen as a sign of goodwill in exchange for the ceasefire was considered "very demanding".

This already seemed odd, given the huge strategical advantage England had at that point... but ok, scottish stubbornness or something.

But, as my diplomat tried to negotiate the "very demanding" ceasefire, he wasn't immediately beheaded.. instead the scots were open for another proposal. This time around though, even the hint of a possible ceasefire was considered to be "very generous". The Scots were even willing to pay for it. It seemed as if the current strategical situation (army size, number of territories) was not being considered by the AI before a second diplomatic proposal.. sorry if this is a known bug or doesn't relate to SS or 6.3, it never happened to me before though.

I have also tried this once. While playing the Byzantiums against the heathen Venetarians, but the second time around, I asked for a ceasefire, recived it, threatend them, took their second last land, and forced them to become my vassels on the thrid diplomatic voyeous. It paid off for a while, until I do not know if it was a bug or not... In 6.3 I had to pay them tribute for 2 turns -5000 each turn, was it because I was paying for their noble upkeep ? Or was it because their faction leader joined the crusade ?

**Shoryn** · August 23, 2010, 01:34 AM

I experienced the same thing yesterday with Lithuania vs. Kiev

**Coprolite** · August 23, 2010, 09:16 AM

Encountered it again, playing the HRE.

This time it wasn't about a ceasefire but merely an alliance proposal. My diplomat suggested to ally, which was considered "demanding". I tried anyway, they refused, and in my second proposal (same terms) they happily accepted my suddenly "very generous" offer.

Again, all during the same diplomacy action (same turn, same diplomat, no reloading.)

I tried to reload several times, it was reproducible. So, it does indeed appear to be a glitch... question is though, is the diplomacy part hardcoded or part of the CAI scripts?

**Clackdor** · August 23, 2010, 09:55 AM

How did you propose two times with the same diplomat on the same turn? I only get one bite at the apple, then I get red X's over objectives and I can just move with my diplomat.

I thought I read that reloading randomly changes diplomatic standings to prevent reloading until you get the optimum deal. I'll be damned if I can find the reference though.

**bɑne** · August 23, 2010, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Clackdor

I thought I read that reloading randomly changes diplomatic standings to prevent reloading until you get the optimum deal. I'll be damned if I can find the reference though.

No need. I can confirm that. It basicly "resets" certain values among them diplomatic ones.
I believe its more likely that its unintentionally left out then intentionally to prevent "reload cheats".

**For England Men** · August 23, 2010, 10:05 AM

I find at any point I am winning a war I can get a cease fire but they usually just prepare and re attack

**For England Men** · August 23, 2010, 10:55 AM

quick question did your diplomat reach them during an end turn as it sounds like a trigger hadn't activated enabling the scottish to realise they were f*$%^ if they didn't except.

**Talax** · August 23, 2010, 11:49 AM

This might not be new to 6.3.

I noticed similar behavior in 6.2, (without RR/RC or BGR), while attempting to end wars. The first ceasefire proposal would be rejected, while the second might include payment or a settlement to me.

Often, the first attempt would lower how the other faction felt about me (if it wasn’t already abysmal). To get around that with factions that went to war by, say, randomly blocking a port, I would offer map information, allowing the AI to choose what it was worth. (The port attackers never gave me a settlement, only cash.)

Regardless of what they say, I make a acounter offer and see if they were now open to vassalage or a ceasefire. I also saw that their listed priority occasionally changed to peace. It was never a guaranteed deal, but the second proposal often seemed more realistic than the first.

On the topic of diplomatic oddities in general, I recall an occasion where the HRE would attack, then I’d make peace in exchange for receiving a lump sum single payment and tribute for what they couldn’t afford right away. They’d then attack again, (their army still next to my town), and I’d make peace again, increasing the tribute, just to see how far it would go. That kept going for a couple dozen turns before I stopped abusing the glitch and gave them their money back.