Are Polybian units worse than Camillan?

[GenAnnoyance]

Hi, sorry if there is an answer to this somewhere else ( I did look, honestly).

Playing as the Romani, I got the Polybian military reforms a while ago and was a little disappointed that I couldn't recruit the new units straight away, instead having to wait for my new MICs to be built- but that's just part of the game so no big deal. My city in Arretium was the first to start upgrading and when the building was half way complete I had a look to see the new toys I could play with and to my horror my beloved Principes and Triarii appeared to have lower stats when comparing them to what I could already recruit in Rome. Initially, I put this down to not showing the boosting effects of other buildings but now, many years later, all my MICs have been upgraded and sure enough when I recruit them their stats seem less effective.

My question(s) are then, are Polybian units worse than Camillan or are there bonuses eluding my untrained eye and really I'm churning out death machines? And if they are worse, is it supposed to be this way?

[Mediolanicus]

Principes have swords, so they have faster attack rates and higher lethality.

Triarii are no longer pure hoplites, but more versatile.

IIRC they are also both more heavily armoured, and have higher morale.

There are lots of stats that don't show up on the unit card.

Polybians are better than Camillians.


Also, no reform took place overnight.

[Knonfoda]

From what I noticed in turn the Imperial legionaries seemed worse than the marian ones, despite not much having changed.

[athanaric]

Are Polybian units worse than Camillan?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: It's a myth arisen from the fact that certain Camillan units are better at certain specific tasks than their later counterparts. Triarii and Equites Romani are slightly worse overall after the reforms. Leves and Rorarii (IIRC) disappear. So much for the worse part.
However, your other units gain increased AoR. Hastati and Principes gain additional armour and become better at assault tasks. With Velites, you get skirmishers that are more reliable than Leves, better armoured and also cooler looking.

Your army as a whole loses some anti-cavalry potential but gains significantly more anti-infantry power. Armour increases on average (Skirmishers, Hastati, Principes), despite Triarii and Equites Romani losing one or two points.

[Anubis88]

Aren't they completly the same? (the imperial and marian)

[Knonfoda]

Aren't they completly the same? (the imperial and marian)

I checked before and after reforms and post marian infantry was slightly better than their imperial counterparts, maybe 1-2 less armour and attack I think.

[bobbin]

Nope, they are completely identical stat wise.

;241
type             roman infantry legionary cohort i
dictionary       roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_i      ; Cohortes Reformata
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_cohorsreformata, 50, 0, 1.18
officer          ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership        seleucid, slave

;242
type             roman infantry legionary cohort ii
dictionary       roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_ii      ; Cohortes Imperatoria
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_cohorsimperatoria_evocata, 50, 0, 1.18
officer          ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership        seleucid, slave

[Anubis88]

I checked before and after reforms and post marian infantry was slightly better than their imperial counterparts, maybe 1-2 less armour and attack I think.

According to this they are completly the same
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

[GenAnnoyance]

Thanks for the info. So my troops will be better at taking on the infantry orientated Sweboz but not so good when/if the steppe tribes come-a-callin'. I presume when the Marian reforms eventually come along, the legions will be nigh invincible?

[Mediolanicus]

Thanks for the info. So my troops will be better at taking on the infantry orientated Sweboz but not so good when/if the steppe tribes come-a-callin'. I presume when the Marian reforms eventually come along, the legions will be nigh invincible?

In numbers per unit and AOR, yes.

They are by far the best line infantry unit in the game. There is still a lot out there that can seriously hurt them though.

[athanaric]

Thanks for the info. So my troops will be better at taking on the infantry orientated Sweboz but not so good when/if the steppe tribes come-a-callin'.

They'll still be able to defeat pretty much any cavalry unit head on. They just suffer from a spear shortage, which you can offset by hiring Gaeroas or other spear armed auxiliaries (Gaeroas make great garrison troops btw.).

[ramsesii]

for spearmen Samnite-Hastatii or Thurepodoi (sp) are the way to go.
Also good are the Greek phalanx units (those white clad hoplites with sword).

Loss off spearpower can be replaced easely with mercs and aor.

[Balbor]

also remember your by the time the Polybian military reforms happens your Camillan units will probably have armour/weapon upgrades and some experience, making there states higher.

I hope in EB2 they add a small window of say 4-8 turns were a small number of veteran (2-3 chevrons) Polybian units are available for hire in the merc pool, to represent experienced Camillan units being re-equipped as Polybian units.

[Prasutagus]

I always felt bad disbanding my experienced Camillan Legions when the reforms come around.

Seemed a shame to get rid of experienced soldiers and so most met their end in dangerous assaults, for the good of the Republic, of course.

[Brapbrapbap]

You can recruit Polybian units on a wider are than Camillians, i also think that they are slightly cheaper.

Imperial troops are the same thing, stat wise they're not much better, but they're available in 50% of the cities in the game and have larger numbers.


Plus, it's just a reform, it doesn't mean that they should become better at everything, they're more streamlined and pragmatic.

Like the Americans, the Sherman wasn't the main battle tank because it was the best, it was because it was the most pragmatic and acessible one