Discussion on Byzantine Roster

[Paladin94610]

The roster looks awesome in the early game with early pro units from the start. But I tried a custom battle with French as Late era style units. And I lost the battle. And I realized that it was just awful in the late game.
In that custom battle-
Money spent is almost the same.(20000florins) The difference is just 1000florins. I mean AI use 1000 more florins than I do.

The units I use are-
General's Bodyguard
2 Siphonatores
2 Cavalarii
2 Scholarii
2 Pronoiarii
3 Gasmuli
1 Latin Gunners
2 Alamanoi
4 Pike Men ( forgot the name - M....something)
1 Spartharii tou Vasileos

The French has
General's Bodyguard
4 Gendarmes
3 Late Pikemen
2 Late Arquebusiers
3 Aventuriers
7 Sergeant Spearmen

The gendarmes charged at my cavalry and I counter charged. But my mounted lances are just long spears and theirs being heavy lances, my cavalry just scattered dead. Cavalarii didn't do much damage on them. The French infantry stormed my Pike wall which is supported by Gasmuli and gunners. They just push and push, my general just struggle with the controlling the wings. One of the gendarmes almost charged at the Spartharii. My siphonatores didn't do much damage but routed 4+ units which eventually return to the battleline. One of my 2 siphonatores unit, marched out and put fire on the arquebusiers, and my general was also chasing the enemy down. One of the flame caught him and get toasted. Two units of pikemen return and some of the crap of the routing French returned to push me back. Eventually my army was outflanked and attacked from the rear by 16 gendarmes which break the line and divided my line into two which led into a chain rout. A crashing defeat. It was just a test to see the situation of Byzantine in late game. I am having a Byzantine campaign and what should I do (what to train, how to fight, how to win) in the late game?
Any suggestions are welcome.

[napoleonic]

mourtatoi and other AoR units

and mercs

[RollingWave]

There was a good reason why this era ended with the fall of Constantinople

Seriously though, pretty much all factions have different ups and downs, most of the Catholic faction's early roster are weak compare to other factions, they're top heavy and unwieldy, knights are cool and all but past that they really get outgunned and out produced.

[Slyspy]

There was a good reason why this era ended with the fall of Constantinople

Seriously though, pretty much all factions have different ups and downs, most of the Catholic faction's early roster are weak compare to other factions, they're top heavy and unwieldy, knights are cool and all but past that they really get outgunned and out produced.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the Empire has poor units in the game because IRL it fell in 1453, not that it fell in 1453 because it was technologically backwards.

That said it did lack a counter to the Ottoman's cannon, possibly after previously turning it's creator away due to lack of funds.

[dominion]

That said it did lack a counter to the Ottoman's cannon, possibly after previously turning it's creator away due to lack of funds.

I've read somewhere a while ago that the hungarians sended 40 canons as aid to the romans just before the siege of constantinopple (don't know it's historical correct though)

[RollingWave]

the fall of the ERE is a complicated issue, backwardness in pretty much any entity is often the result of some greater context and hardly just a mentality thing.

for one thing, the most obvious final blow for the empire was probably the 4th Crusade. the Byzantine empire basically never recovered from that point onward.

And really, any entity that lasted around 1000 years was surely going to have a lot of systematic problems

[Seether]

And really, any entity that lasted around 1000 years was surely going to have a lot of systematic problems

The Roman Empire was around closer to 2000 years

[Paladin94610]

REPORT-
On analyzing my defeat, I found that the lost of my wings is a major factor. My wings are composed of 1 Scholarii, and 1 pronoiarii on each wing. I spread them out into a double line to make a powerful charge and to outflank the enemy. But the enemy gendarmes also do that and my long spears can't withstand their massive long LANCES. So I made a test to see if my scholarii don't spread out to become a thin line. My scholarii had 6lines deep, 14 men wide in the next battle, the gendarmes charged, they killed some men from the front and the frontal corners. Then I click on them again to stop the charge(the cavalry usually charge even they are engaging with enemy, so the charging scholarii with damn long spears are useless), thus I click them again to stop the charge and have mace drawn out and that was a nightmare for the gendarmes. They routed them, with 6 gendarme left, running away from 37 Scholarii.
Closely packed mace fighting force for the Romans. I am starting to learn the byzantine roster and the behavior of catapharacts.
BTW, AP is essential for the Romans since they don't wear much armor. My skythikons shot and shot the gendarmes from the rear, even still they lost only 3 men in 10 barrels (600+arrows). Damn armor

[luciferleigh]

id say the cause of the defeat is bad use of the flamethrowers

[k/t]

Yeah, how can you crisp your own general?

You didn't have any way to kill their heavy cavalry. Where are your AP units? Doesn't ERE get some halberds or axemen?

[Gogolometro]

You miss scoutatoi and mouradoi. Cavalari are nice but not enough. Use more latin handgunners. Spatri are cool but few mens. Mourtadoi can be used against gunners with some success.

[nickname]

The byzantine roster is slightly weaker than the european rosters. But you have to see how much and where you are able to recruit the units. In an fully upgraded Castle you can recruit 10 swordman in just 6 rounds (without RR or BGR) and after that 4 spearman. They are just professionals. Less recruiting time, faster recover. You will be to recruit 4 heavy cav that are a litte bit weaker than european cav in just one turn. And if you want some jalvin cav and inf. They are not that bad against heavy cav. In defencebattles I use them to fire in the enemys my man are fighting at the gate. Mostly against the heavy cav is the target. And they fall like flys. They will be 2 or 3 different mounted archers to in your castle. Ready in one round. Build an army of them fast and weak the enemy in some battles. It will help. And the byzs do have the advantage of the eastern kingdoms to recruit good units in citys too. Most europeans will just get militia and pikeman are very helpless against skirmishing. You will get some realy heavy armored pikeman and swordman that are nearly god as your castle swordman. You can field a larger number of troops in less time. Use it. And against the east. Your units use better amor and can take more. You are between the worlds.

[Sanderlicious]

I am a fan of the roster and feel it is fairly well balanced even if it lags a bit behind European (and Seljuk) late technology.

Thats why I was thinking about adding another type of cannon for the Byzantines to use in the late game, but I haven't gotten far enough to feel out the late game with the byzantines myself.

[Silver Legionary]

The Byzantine Empire's roster lags a bit in the Late Era,
but in all the Eras before that, they are quite strong.


As an example, Scholarii Heavy Cataphracts defeat most other cavalry 1 on 1,
because not only do they pretty much match late heavy cavalry from other factions,
they have MACES.
Maces DESTROY heavily-armored units.

I believe the in-game effect is that only 1/2 of the target's Armor is counted.
So, if you are fighting, say, a Heavy cavalry unit with 14 armor, 7 def. skill, and
3 defense skill.

Against a Scholarii, the total defense of that unit would be 17, instead of 24.
That's a BIG difference in SS.

My point is that the Byzantines are incredibly strong until the Late Era, when their
tech starts to lag behind that of other factions; even then, they are still a contender.

[Kawee]

And in the very late era, unless you play the 1450 campaign, you really should have established your empire to be able to look after yourself. Beside, it's so much more fun killing your enemies with swords, arrows, and maces, than it is with muskets and cannons. I call it, the viking-raiders syndrome.

[chris7ian]

They shouldnt have Saxon Huscarls!

[Caesar Clivus]

They shouldnt have Saxon Huscarls!

The Huscarls represent the early Varangian Guard. After the Norman invasion of England, many huscarls became mercenaries and ended up in service to the Romans.

[AnthoniusII]

The roster looks awesome in the early game with early pro units from the start. But I tried a custom battle with French as Late era style units. And I lost the battle. And I realized that it was just awful in the late game.
In that custom battle-
Money spent is almost the same.(20000florins) The difference is just 1000florins. I mean AI use 1000 more florins than I do.

The units I use are-
General's Bodyguard
2 Siphonatores
2 Cavalarii
2 Scholarii
2 Pronoiarii
3 Gasmuli
1 Latin Gunners
2 Alamanoi
4 Pike Men ( forgot the name - M....something)
1 Spartharii tou Vasileos

The French has
General's Bodyguard
4 Gendarmes
3 Late Pikemen
2 Late Arquebusiers
3 Aventuriers
7 Sergeant Spearmen

The gendarmes charged at my cavalry and I counter charged. But my mounted lances are just long spears and theirs being heavy lances, my cavalry just scattered dead. Cavalarii didn't do much damage on them. The French infantry stormed my Pike wall which is supported by Gasmuli and gunners. They just push and push, my general just struggle with the controlling the wings. One of the gendarmes almost charged at the Spartharii. My siphonatores didn't do much damage but routed 4+ units which eventually return to the battleline. One of my 2 siphonatores unit, marched out and put fire on the arquebusiers, and my general was also chasing the enemy down. One of the flame caught him and get toasted. Two units of pikemen return and some of the crap of the routing French returned to push me back. Eventually my army was outflanked and attacked from the rear by 16 gendarmes which break the line and divided my line into two which led into a chain rout. A crashing defeat. It was just a test to see the situation of Byzantine in late game. I am having a Byzantine campaign and what should I do (what to train, how to fight, how to win) in the late game?
Any suggestions are welcome.

Here you have an unfair comparison.
You can not compair late medeival units with early/high era ones.
The Roman(byzantine) roster is in such way designed to show how weak-despite the evolutions and additions-the roman armies were in the end of the empire's life.
Here are some formations mostly for early campaigns.
Read this AAR as a guide.
Read about formations here.
A notice. Menaylatoi pikemen in RR/RC mod is not a CBUR unit.
If you want to defeat Gendarmes or Chivarlic knights you must use Acontistae but only defending walls. Even the most humble unit can be usefull if you know its limits and proper way of use.

They shouldnt have Saxon Huscarls!

Varangian guard had 100% Rus vikings only in its day of creation as a gift to Basil II .
After 1070-79 during the early days of the norman occupasion in England many saxon warriors
left the island trying to survive. They faught in a scimilar way with Rus vikings and they massivly joined the Varangian Guard.
Thet were so many that many Romas called the Guard "Anglovarangia".
The same time Danes,Norwegians,Swedish vikings still joined the guard.In fact Kievan Rus became less and less every year.
Harald Haadrata was high officer in the unit before he go back to his homeland and become king of it!!!

[ShadowKiller2000]

The battle between a French and Roman roster is indeed interesting in the late period.

For late period vs. the French I would have chosen a different army. In my opinion something like this would have been more effective:


Menaulatoi as your front line. 1 or 2 flamethrowers behind, and have them off of auto-fire! Pick and chose targets so you don't roast your own General.......I feel your pain, I learned this one the hard way in a critical seige chasing routers......very very upset that battle
Directly behind your pikes place Akritae......they will pepper any incomming enemy cavalry and reduce the effectiveness of the charge...good chance you will kill the enemy general as well. I have not tested this but I am assuming they will also help kill those pesky Lancers!!!

Varangian Guard, and Alammanoi for flanking and support roles respectively.

Scholarii, and Poronoiarii on the flanks would be great, with a few mounted Akritae as well, to intercept and hit slow moving French cavalry from the flanks and behind when posssible. Skip the horse archers in this battle as the French have thick armor, and javelins will be more effective than horse archer arrows.

I would also suggest using some Mourtatoi and place stakes to inhibit the charges of the enemy cavalry. Their long range missles are useful and they will still do some damage to the French.

That is my 2 cents, but would give a more effective army in countering the French HC, and heavy armor.