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  1. #1
    Voodo chile's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Importance of battles in SS

    In vanilla mtw you would get countless battles which were not much of a challenge but would slowly whittle your forces down before they got to a town or castle. Personally i would prefer fighting a large battle that determines the fate of a town or region or at least have it so that you don't fight mindless battles every turn that dont accomplish anything. Does stainless steel deal with these 'problems'?

    EDIT: hey also whats the ration of nobles to commoners in armies

    EDIT 2: Another question. Have the ranges of bows been increased to compensate for the slow response times of units?
    Last edited by Voodo chile; August 22, 2010 at 01:09 AM.

  2. #2
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Importance of battles in SS

    Yes it does. Especially if you use RR and/or Byg's Grim Reality submods.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

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    Voodo chile's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Importance of battles in SS

    RR sounds good but looking at the byg Grim reality sub mod forum hasn't really taught me anything. i know that there i a supply system from what i have read but i cant find anything describing what the sub mod actually changes and how its features work.

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    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Importance of battles in SS

    There is a guide in the BGR thread in the submods forum

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  5. #5
    Mega Tortas de Bodemloze's Avatar Do it now.
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    Default Re: Importance of battles in SS

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodo chile View Post
    In vanilla mtw you would get countless battles which were not much of a challenge but would slowly whittle your forces down before they got to a town or castle. Personally i would prefer fighting a large battle that determines the fate of a town or region or at least have it so that you don't fight mindless battles every turn that dont accomplish anything. Does stainless steel deal with these 'problems'?

    EDIT: hey also whats the ration of nobles to commoners in armies
    In SS6.3 playing battles is really important because using real Recruitment in now basically mandatory if you want to be able to hire All the availible units.

    Since units are now scarce, you ca'nt risk auto-calcing or you can't replace your loses..most of the time...

    Here's the RR guide btw....


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Real Recruitment 1.3 Guide
    Introduction

    Real Recruitment ('RR') is an attempt to more accurately simulate the dynamics of recruiting,

    retention and training during the medieval period covered by the M2TW game. It also includes an

    ERA system that ensures units are available during the approximately correct historical timeframe.

    It is integrated with Real Combat 1.8 (though can be altered to fit other EDU's).

    RR divides the units in the game into 9 separate categories, each with different factors that

    influence unit availability, training time, recruitment cost and upkeep. The 9 categories are: Feudals,

    Early Professionals, Late Professionals, Urban Professionals, Urban Militias, Locals, Rural Levies,

    Religious Order and Mercenaries (a list of units by category will be attached).

    Design notes follow. Note that, although they may seem complex, the game can be played in

    exactly the same manner as normal. The detail is for those who want some background and are

    interested in what is happening behind the scenes.

    Goals of Real Recruitment

    Realistic Army Composition

    So far there are always one or two unit types that dominate the AI armies and the player is likewise

    not motivated to use armies, that, at least roughly, resemble those of history, when he can afford an

    elite army. Typical european armies consisted of a core of knights, ie heavy cavalry with at least the

    same amount of light cavalry, if not more, a small contigent of heavy infantry (at first mostly noble

    infantry and itดs amount would increase later on as well) accompanied by conscripted peasants and

    semi-professional urban militias and, according to the culture, between a fourth and half of the

    infantry armed with ranged weapons. These armies would be supplemented by a single or two

    special units (for europeans mounted archers for instance) and an artillery park according to the age,

    bolstered by some mercenaries. For eastern armies the special units would be the heavy cavalry,

    while the melee cavalry would be substituted by light and heavy horse archers. In general the

    amount of cavalry would be higher and the infantry mostly equipped with bows, with only a

    comparatively small part equipped for melee. RR attempts to create the conditions that encourage

    realistic army composition.

    Encourage Increased Use of Mercenaries

    In an age where mercenaries played a crucial part in warfare, RR implements a cost and availability

    structure around most units recruitable by the player such that the use of mercenaries is more

    desirable, and attempts to make mercenaries useful and necessary without letting them dominate the

    campaign. The value of mercenaries is closely linked to the availability of the normal unit roster.

    The more problems we make to recruit regular units of the faction the more valuable mercenaries

    will become. When military desasters like Crecy left a kindgom with insufficent trained manpower

    (=reduced replacement rates), when major conflicts exceed the military potential of a state

    (=balanced pool sizes of recruitable units in settlements) or time is running out (=some units take

    longer than one turn to train), European rulers frequently relied on bands of mercenaries to wage

    their wars.

    Historical Accuracy In Regard of the Appearence of Unit Types

    The vanilla recruitment system leads to ahistorical situations, in which units that were quite

    common at an age are placed at the end of the tech tree or their appearence occurs far before their

    time. RR attempts to ensure that units appear during the approximately correct historical timeframe.

    Making Military Disasters Have More Impact

    Following on from the above, it can take some time to recruit a capable, large army. If that army is

    subsequently destroyed it can take some time to recover.

    Trying to Represent the Advantages and Disadvantages of Each Faction's Unit

    Mix

    Historically, each faction's unit mix had a certain 'flavour'. For example, France relied heavily upon

    Heavy Cavalry and Nobles and was one of the first to move to a professional force, England her

    archers, Lithuania had a very 'Early'-style roster with lots of Nobles, Early Professionals and Militia

    (+ Religious Order), Mongol Forces are largely derived from plains warriors welded into a

    disciplined force, Middle Eastern factions were less feudal and some had slave units etc. RR

    attempts to recreate this, and any relevant advantages and disadvantages, by categorising each

    faction's units appropriately.

    Generally Making the Strategic Part of the Game More Challenging

    Well, I think this is self-explanatory.

    The Categories

    Overview

    Following is an overview of the nine categories in the RR system. Each category is defined by 6

    main characteristics.

    Pool Size

    : The maximum number of available units of this type available for recruitment at any

    time.

    Pool Priority

    : For every building tier, there is a maximum size allowed for all combined pools at

    that level, called the Total Force Pool (TFP). Units with a low pool priority will be bumped out of

    the TFP by higher-priority units. For example, if a Late Professional unit enters the TFP and there is

    no room, it can bump out a Local or Rural Levy.

    Replacement Rate

    : The rate at which new units become available for recruitment and go into the

    Pool.

    Training Time

    : Defines when newly-recruited units become available. For most categories, it is the

    next turn. For Late Professionals and Urban Professionals, it varies by the unit quality and type.

    Generally, better-quality units, archers and cavalry take longer to train.

    Recruitment Cost

    : The cost to recruit one unit of this type. Factors influencing Recruitment Cost

    are:

    · Armor: from Padded to Late Renaissance Plate, more heavily armored units cost more

    · Mount Type: from Pony to Armored Horse, better mounts cost more. Most cavalry units also

    maintain at least 1 additional fighting mount, though the armor cost is paid for only once

    · Riding Mounts: Mounted and Dismounted versions of those mounted units (eg Dismounted

    Knights) maintain from 1 to 4 additional cheap riding mounts

    · Weapons: from Spears to Muskets, better and more technologically advanced weapons are

    more expensive

    · Training Costs: Training costs increase in the following hierarchy: Crossbow < Melee <

    Javelin < Gun < Archer. Mounted training costs are significantly higher. Training costs for

    Swords and Polearms are increased. Training costs for 'highly_trained' units are increased.

    Upkeep Cost

    : The cost to support and pay for this unit for 1 turn. Upkeep costs increase in the

    following hierarchy: Javelin < Archer < Melee < Crossbow < Gun. One turn's upkeep cost is also

    paid to the unit during training. Mounted units cost significantly more.

    Special

    : Any special factors influencing the unit category.

    Recruitment and Upkeep Costs are heavily modified by Real Combat unit class: Peasant < Militia <

    Average < Superior < Elite.

    Note that all costs are calculated PER MAN and multiplied out by the number of men per unit, to

    arrive at a final unit cost, eg although it may cost less to recruit an individual spearman than a

    swordsman, a unit of spearmen may cost more by virtue of being 25% larger.

    Feudals

    Pool Size: Low

    Pool Priority: High

    Replacement Rate: Very Low

    Training Time: Next Turn

    Recruitment Cost: Normal

    Upkeep Cost: Doubled

    Special: Limited Free Upkeep in Castles, units often impetuous or of low discipline

    The major and minor nobles, that follow the call to arms by their overlord, the king and bring with

    them their armed retinues. They serve as part of their tenure agreement and formed the core of the

    early eraดs armies, but will not die out even at the end of the period given by the game. This

    category includes almost all of the early, high and late eraดs european heavy cavalry, a large part of

    the light cavalry and the noble infantry. The giving of tenured land (fief) to the feudal vassal is

    simulated by the payment of the one-time Recruitment Cost (which could instead in this case be

    called a tenure agreement). The ongoing obligation of the vassal is simulated by making it a free

    upkeep unit at the castle. If the vassal/feudal unit ends the year away from castle, it has clearly been

    in the lord's service that year/turn for a greater period that its nominal obligation, and an upkeep

    cost of some variety must then be paid. The upkeep costs for Feudal units in such a case are

    substantial, and capricious feudal nobles were a constant source of headaches to the crown. Note

    that these units are recruited by the castle, not the barracks or stables. By recruiting at the castle we

    are simulating the gathering of nobles/landowners seeking tenure from the castle lord. Because the

    number of Feudal units will be quite limited, their relative importance rises, and the number of

    Early Professionals, Locals, Urban Militia and Rural Levies will rise. NOTE: In the Late Era, the

    number of free upkeep Feudal units normally supported (Castle 1, Fortress 2, Citadel 3) falls by 1.

    The feudal system is gradually disappearing.

    Early Professionals

    Pool Size: Low

    Pool Priority: Medium; First Early Pro in the Pool does not count toward TFP limit

    Replacement Rate: Low

    Training Time: Next Turn

    Recruitment Cost: All Training and Equipment/Mounts Discounted

    Upkeep Cost: Increased

    Special: Also in it for the loot, but no way (yet) to simulate this

    This category encompasses all those types of men, who live solely by waging war in the pay of

    either some noble or the crown on the base of contracts for a specific amount of time or a campaign.

    Although they are full-time soldiers, their regular pay, while of significant size, is often just

    complementary to them getting a chance to loot and as they are regularly dismissed, after they

    served their purpose in a specific campaign, they often invest their money in a second base of

    fortune or have to look for another mission by another employer. This and the relatively easy going

    recruitement criteria mean that the numbers of professionals in a kingdomดs service are extremely

    volatile. They represent hard-bitten individuals or small groups of men, who are trying their best to

    profit from the ongoing feuds and major campaigns of the medieval world, which leads to a

    surprising high fighting morale, while their discipline and equipment is generally of good to

    moderate. The more efficient and better equipped units of this category are supposed to be that part

    of this class that found a regular employment in a nobleดs or the crownดs service. For the first half

    of the gameดs timeline early professionals are the core of the melee infantry part of an army

    supplemented by militias, while the noble heavy infantry is either used at critical points or kept in

    reserve. Sergeant spearmen are a stereotype of this category. The poor Replacement Rate of Early

    Professionals leads to the result that short and properly prepared campaigns would see a good

    amount of them, but ad-hoc fights and prolonged campaigns will quickly eat up the reserves of

    trained men. Note that it is recommended, when using Early Professionals, to disband them in the

    settlement from where they were hired if they are not immediately needed. This keeps upkeep costs

    down and they will appear in the Recruiting Pool again next turn. This is a reasonably good abstract

    simulation of what happened historically. If the dividing line between Early Pros and Mercenaries

    seems somewhat blurred, that's because it is.

    Late Professionals

    Pool Size: Average

    Pool Priority: High

    Replacement Rate: High

    Training Time: Varies

    Recruitment Cost: Increased

    Upkeep Cost: Normal

    Special: Training Time varies based on Unit Type and Quality; higher proportion of

    disciplined units

    Contrary to their early counterparts late professionals have much clearer dependencies, which come

    along with the development of the stronger central powers of the medieval states. Instead of being

    assigned for service for a specific campaign the crown now tended to keep a significant amount of

    those full-time soldiers in regular pay and founded something similar to a standing army, which

    encompassed the most reliable (which means loyal to the realmดs gouverment, not well behaving)

    companies of armed men, whose core stayed the same for a considerable amount of time, even as

    still a good part them had a fluctuating staff. They have a specially trained officer corps (in which,

    as a novelty, even some minor nobles make career) and the more advanced states even sport regular
    recruitment institutions (like the military academy). Their equipment is usually among the best
    available, as the states wanted to profit from their considerable investment they put into their
    training and more often used the threat of the power, which they represented, to ensure the loyality
    of the major nobles of the realm, than in actual battles against foreign powers. Going along with this
    and the technological development the kings of europe made sure that almost every tactical role on
    the battlefield (especially that of the heavy cavalry) now could be brought to bear by a class, whose
    primary dependency was to the crown, instead of local nobles. This is represented by units as
    Lancers, Demi-Lancers, Pikemen and Arquebusiers, which are all part of this category. Due to the
    infrastructure and training time required to field units in this category, recruiting cost is increased.
    Urban Professionals
    Pool Size: Average
    Pool Priority: High
    Replacement Rate: Average
    Training Time: Varies
    Recruitment Cost: Increased
    Upkeep Cost: Normal
    Special: Training Time varies based on Unit Type and Quality
    Similar to Late Professionals, but the units are recruited and trained in a city.
    Urban Militias
    Pool Size: Average
    Pool Priority: Low
    Replacement Rate: High
    Training Time: Next Turn
    Recruitment Cost: Equipment/Mounts Discounted
    Upkeep Cost: Increased
    Special: Limited Free Upkeep in Cities, expensive and less morale than regular units when
    away from them in the field
    Lo and behold, urban units are taken from a regionดs urban centres and often they are paid by them
    as well, while they are doing their usual service of guarding and patrolling the townsด areas of
    interest, which is represented by being a free upkeep unit, as long as they are garrisoned in a town.
    If leaving the townดs limits they are supposed to be that urban centreดs contribution to the kingdom
    ดs war efforts and sequentially have to be paid and provisioned by the crown. This also causes
    economic dislocation in their home town. While some of them, who were raised in towns of
    secondary importance, are organized militias, those who are recruited by the more influential
    population centres often have no other job besides soldiery, as we suppose that such big amounts of
    population can produce enough income for letting a significant amount of the citizens dedicate their
    live to secure this income. (And their comparatively high independency towards the realmดs
    leadership.) Their main characteristic is their relatively good equipment (as there are enough
    specialist craftsmen in a city), much of which they pay for themselves, while their effectivenes and
    discipline will proportionally increase with the cityดs political and economical importance, even
    when still lacking a bit in comparison to true professionals, who live by war (instead to live by
    keeping the peace). Italian Militias would be a perfect representative of this category.
    Locals
    Pool Size: Average
    Pool Priority: Low
    Replacement Rate: Average
    Training Time: Next Turn
    Recruitment Cost: Equipment/Mounts Discounted
    Upkeep Cost: Increased
    Special: Discipline typically lower than for trained units, usually have the 'untrained'
    attribute, limited Free Upkeep in castle regions where recruited
    This group encompasses members of kingdoms which have either a sophisticated system of
    implementing the rural population into its armed forces (eg Longbowmen) or who have a
    considerable amount of more warlike population (eg Woodsmen). Locals serve as part of their duty
    as subjects of the realm and, mostly, are either receiving less pay than other soldiers or none at all,
    though the time taken for their training and organisation does cause some economic dislocation.
    There are, of course, also volunteers among this group, but mainly because there is a multtude of
    reasons why someone lost his livelihood. Their main characteristic is, that they are never full time
    soldiers, but all their martial prowess is learned as part of their civil live or during the short training
    they receive before being organized in companies, given officers of regular units (mostly
    experienced full-time soldiers and only very seldom one of their own people of higher status like
    village headmen) and shooed in direction of the battlefield. Their quality mainly depends on how
    warlike their origin is, while their equipment is commonly of low quality, second hand (which
    means looted) or provided by themselves, which makes them more readily available than other
    troop categories.
    Rural Levies
    Pool Size: High
    Pool Priority: Very Low
    Replacement Rate: High
    Training Time: Next Turn
    Recruitment Cost: Equipment/Mounts Discounted (usually have none)
    Upkeep Cost: Normal
    Special: Very Low Morale
    As can be expected by the name this category summarizes all units that are recruited from the rural
    population, mostly by drafting them. These units are mostly peasants and have little to no military
    skill. Against any substantial opposition, they are likely to run away.
    Religious Order
    Pool Size: Varies, but typically Low
    Pool Priority: High; First Order unit in the Pool does not count toward TFP limit
    Replacement Rate: Varies, but typically Very Low
    Training Time: Next Turn
    Recruitment Cost: Normal
    Upkeep Cost: Reduced
    Special: Typically Good Morale
    Members of religious orders, they are called to their tasks. As such, they are fighting for a cause that
    does not necessarily place payment for their services in such a high priority, and their upkeep is
    somewhat reduced.
    Mercenaries
    Pool Size: Varies
    Pool Priority: N/A
    Replacement Rate: Varies
    Training Time: Immediate
    Recruitment Cost: Varies, But Usually Reduced (More experienced Mercenaries cost more
    however)
    Upkeep Cost: At Least Double
    Special: Often (but not always) slightly reduced morale.
    To recruit a mercenary is in almost all cases a cheaper (and certainly more immediate) option that
    recruiting and training the corresponding faction unit. However, their upkeep (read: pay) is also
    typically at least double what a regular soldier would receive. Thus, their long-term employment
    quickly becomes an expensive proposition. To add to this, they are often somewhat averse to risking
    their lives in combat. Experienced mercenaries will cost somewhat more to hire.
    ERA System
    Real Recruitment varies the availability of all units in a very detailed fashion depending on the current date:






















    Early, High or Late. Aside from whether the unit is available or not, its level of availability can also vary from year

    to year. For example, some units that are common in the Early Era will become less available in later

    eras. Changes will be particularly evident for Feudal units.

    Units also become available as a result of technological advances.




    Last edited by Mega Tortas de Bodemloze; August 21, 2010 at 04:51 AM. Reason: added RR guide

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