What the??? I gave up Norman Sarjeants, Miles, and Miles Pedites for Feudal Footknights???

[jsadighi]

I was excited to get Feudal Footknights.... that was until I realized I would be forced to sacrifice 3 units that were just as good.

I get it, I get it..... RR and all that but even with RR disabled, I read that the same limitations apply. Don't you think that's a bit harsh? I was looking forward to mixing my Norman Sarjeants with Feudal Footknights.

[Alpha Zeke]

Um what? If you have RR enabled you should be able to get them around the same time, but soon after you won't be able to get both and just use the old ones. Also, I don't remember having Norman Sergeants But I do love the Norman Knights of all forms.

[jsadighi]

Norman Sarjeants are in 6.3 when you play as England. Here's what happened:

I was able to recruit Miles, Miles Pedites, and Norman Sarjeants. The year 1200 came around with the Plate event, thus opening up Feudal Footknights in my Fortress/Castle recruitment pools.

The problem is, on the next turn, the option to recruit Miles, Miles Pedites, and Norman Sarjeants were taken out! Now all I can recruit are:

Fyrd Spearmen
Militia spearmen
Levy Archers
Hobilars
Archers
Feudal Footknights
Feudal Knights

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[HawkyTom]

Norman Sarjeants are in 6.3 when you play as England. Here's what happened:

I was able to recruit Miles, Miles Pedites, and Norman Sarjeants. The year 1200 came around with the Plate event, thus opening up Feudal Footknights in my Fortress/Castle recruitment pools.

The problem is, on the next turn, the option to recruit Miles, Miles Pedites, and Norman Sarjeants were taken out!

Playing as England VH/VH BGR IV-E in early era, RR on...I have 5 fortresses: Nottingham, Caen, Angers, Bordeaux, Toulouse...I was previously able to build an army of these early professional/elite:

-Norman Sergeants (1 per 3 turns)
-Archers (1 per 3 turns)
-Light Men at Arms (1 per 5 turns)
-Miles Pedites (1 per 9 turns)
-Miles (1 per 9 turns)
-Feudal Knights (1 per 10 turns)

(all 6 of these units were available from all 5 Castles)


Now after this 'awesome event' which makes mail more accessible I'm only able to field these early professional/elite units:

-Spearman Sergeants [same stats as Norman Sergeants]...(only in Toulouse, all others are ONLY peasant Fyrd/Spear Militia)
-Archers (1 per 3 turns...now require 1 tier higher in the archery buildings to make)
-Light Men at Arms ( 1 per 5 turns; same)
-Feudal Knights (1 per 6 turns now)
-Feudal Foot Knights (1 per 10 turns...replaced Miles Pedite, slightly better and less frequent)

OVERVIEW:


-Spearman are non-existant except for Peasant/Miltia quality and the most recent French castle I took, Toulouse.
-Archers are nearly the same, but require building a one tier higher of the archery building.
-Light Infantry same availability.
-Heavy Infantry slightly better, but less frequent...
-Heavy Cavalry basically went from 4per18 turns to 3per18turns...however all 3 are feudal knights, which are better than Miles.

Higher quality units which are even more rare than before, which is from the already very low availability via 3 War Council+PTS, or 2 when one is in the field.

I'm guessing Miles and Miles Pedite were taken out because you would be able to make professional/elite armies twice as fast if both were available...however what is the deal with Spearman becoming virtually extinct except for mercenary spearman, which I assume still exist!

[Point Blank]

What is the problem? FK and DFK are better than Miles/Miles Pedites, and Norman Serjeants are replaced by Armored Serjeants (Serjeant Spearmen).

[jsadighi]

Now, logically yes, the new units are better than the old ones. But they're also better than Fyrd spearmen and militia spearmen, and yet I can keep recruiting those units.

I checked the stats on the 6.3 RR/RC online unit database, and Spearmen Sargeants are essentially the same unit as Norman Sarjaents.

You're basically giving me the same unit twice. The problem? I have to wait a period of time until (I assume) the relevant barracks are built before I can recruit Spearmen Sargants. During that time period the only spearmen I have access to are Militia Spearmen and Fyrd Spearmen.

The problem is one of logic. Why would I stop recruiting Norman Sarjaents during that waiting period for Spearmen Sargeants? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I should be able to keep recruiting Norman Sarjeants until Spearmen Sargeants show up in my recruitment pool.

[Gogolometro]

Fryd are exceptionally cheap unit and good stats. Dont complain because you got special unit. Be happy you got normand units. Same for Sicily. Hint, even you cant recruit them after a while, you can retrain them.

[Mornai]

Fryd are exceptionally cheap unit and good stats. Dont complain because you got special unit. Be happy you got normand units. Same for Sicily. Hint, even you cant recruit them after a while, you can retrain them.

Last time i checked, Fyrd Spearmen's stats were worse than regular ol' Spear Militia. I've only played one England campaign so far though...

[Gogolometro]

I invade Scandinavia with fryd. Not stats tell you everything. In battles against England I payed many times because I subestimate fryd spears. Wtach their upkeep. Using half of stack of them and half of archers, longbows and crossbows is a very wise decision. Why to wait to make a great army of armored sargents/dfk and all the creme, when can launch waves after waves of fryd.

[jsadighi]

I'm not arguing against the merits or reasons of Fyrd Spearmen. I utilized that unit many times until I gained access to more professional units. But by that same token, you can't honestly claim that you'd rather recruit Fyrd Spearmen over Norman Sarjeants if you can afford them.

But that's besides the point and is off topic. The question remains: Logically, why should I stop recruiting Norman Sarjeants for a period of time until I have access to Spearmen Sargeants? Especially when they're basically the same unit!

[bɑne]

Ok... shouldn't the question be "Why am I not able to recruit Norman Sarjeants until they are succeeded by Spearmen Sargeants"?
If so my guess is that the first is a AOR unit and abides by different rules then the second (core) one.

[jsadighi]

Ok... shouldn't the question be "Why am I not able to recruit Norman Sarjeants until they are succeeded by Spearmen Sargeants"?
If so my guess is that the first is a AOR unit and abides by different rules then the second (core) one.

And which area does that AOR rule apply? Because I can no longer recruit Norman Sarjeants at all in any of my castles, including Caen!

I don't think this is an AOR recruitment issue, because I can still recruit Highlanders, Highland Archers, and Border Horses in Inverness.

[bɑne]

And which area does that AOR rule apply? Because I can no longer recruit Norman Sarjeants at all in any of my castles, including Caen!

I don't think this is an AOR recruitment issue, because I can still recruit Highlanders, Highland Archers, and Border Horses in Inverness.

Well... I think we can cut this short. Open export_descr_buildings.txt in mods\SS6.3\data and change the conditions for Norman Sarjeants.
If you need help: A Guide to the Export_Descr_Buildings

[Fakir]

Once you get to a certain time period, it is only logical that you would no longer be using obsolete units. You don't today's militaries sending soldiers into battle armed with muskets either.

[jsadighi]

Once you get to a certain time period, it is only logical that you would no longer be using obsolete units. You don't today's militaries sending soldiers into battle armed with muskets either.

You're absolutely right, but the stat differences between Norman Sarjeants and Spearmen Sargeants are negligible. They are essentially the same unit. The fact that one is supposed to be more advanced than the other hasn't really been represented or illustrated all that well.

Well... I think we can cut this short. Open export_descr_buildings.txt in mods\SS6.3\data and change the conditions for Norman Sarjeants.
If you need help: A Guide to the Export_Descr_Buildings

I'll take a look and see what changes need to be made. BTW, I noticed that certain units have duplicate entries for the AOR system. For example, there is a set of entries for Highlanders, Highland Archers, Border Horses for Scotland's recruitment, and another set for other factions (AOR I presume).

I'll study and try to understand how it all works.

[Point Blank]

They are not duplicate entries, they are entries that depend on different conditions.

Armored Serjeants have different mental stats, terrain modifiers and armor upgrade paths to Norman Serjeants.

[preachercheeze]

They are not duplicate entries, they are entries that depend on different conditions.

Armored Serjeants have different mental stats, terrain modifiers and armor upgrade paths to Norman Serjeants.

isn't it a difference in the quality also? feudal or proffesional or something or other...? as I recall it, stats was not saying a thing due to the fact that the feudal and levy "traits" changed the stats considerably??? or have I misinterpit the whole thing?

[Gogolometro]

About Iverness, you will got first pikes in Europe!

[newt]

Armoured Sergeants are actually worse. The only thing they have going for them is the armour upgrades

Norman Sergeants attack 3, 3 armour 4, 3, 7 mental 12, normal, trained armour upgrade 7 stat_ground 1, -1, 2, 1 heat 5
Armored Sergeants attack 3, 3 armour 4, 3, 7 mental 11, normal, trained armour upgrade 7, 11, 15 stat_ground 0, -2, 2, -1 heat 6

[Point Blank]

Armoured Sergeants are actually worse. The only thing they have going for them is the armour upgrades

And why is that wrong? The Normans had a reputation as very effective warriors. They are intended to be slightly superior to the average serjeant spearman. However, that tradition became diluted in later years.