For anyone that wants more larger units on large setting

[JaNuZ99]

edit: sorry for the title, i was meant to just be "For anyone that wants larger units on large setting"

edit: 2 at the suggestion of everyone I upped the unit costs for the romans (still its not too much, only added an additional 28 men to the standard unit size if you think about it)

1.I knocked off defense points for all the roman units (got to give credit for some help from Carados for his guidance)
2.The imitation legionaries also had to lose some defense points around the range of the defense for the princeps, can't have them being that much stronger than the princeps they are based off.
3. IIRC i upped the iberian scurturrii's defense by a point or two, i found that they should be able to go up against princeps and do ok (by that i mean they actually manage to do some damage, followed by my princeps killing them
4. Yeah its not consistent but i left the italic calvary alone, if i made them 30 men ,other faction's calvary would have a numerical and quality advantage over them.

This is just something i thought fellow roman players might like after all the more troops in a unit the harder it is to get flanked and yet the harder to do the same i think, plus IMO it feel like you are finally commanding a proper maniple

I've gone ahead and increased the unit size for the roman units,their italic counter-parts,and the imitation legionaries for the other factions

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've always felt that I'm "lacking" in roman troops while playing on large settings , and because my rig would lag more using huge settings (and on huge you get 160 men which is the number of troops in a cohort not a maniple), i decided to go into my descr_export_unit file and made it so on large setting i would have 120 men for my hastati, princeps, and velite units (number of men per maniple) and 60 for triarii

in this way if i build a legion

i have one unit of hastati with 120 men (1 =10) and thus i represent the all ten maniples that made up the first line, the same with the princeps, and with the triarri, i'd have 60 (following the 1=10 principle) and thus i recreated the numbers for the roman component of a legion

1200 hastati
1200 princeps
600 triarri

do the same with the italics and you have the italian component down

thus to complete your legion (you have your general and/ or a tribune and equites/italic calvary to complete the calvary component

*note that on huge setting these numbers double

anyways i thought that maybe i might not be the only one and if you want to have a properly sized roman unit without having to use huge settings here's my modified copy of my descr_unit file

EDU version where you can enjoy your new roman powerhouse units without the aforementioned changes

modified EDU version with unit cost and aformentioned changes
*note it wont take effect until after you start a new campaign i think

[Carados]

And did you reduce the equites to just 30 men? ^__^

[Mogan]

More important: did you also increase the costs of these units proportionally? If not, you just made the Romans an unstoppable war-machine, which there's no way to stop. Something along the lines of Zerg, not historical Roman domination.

To make myself clear in one word: OVERKILL!

[Daqin]

You're also going to have some very slow battles and probably freezes/crashes from having so many troops on the battlefield at once. The game wasn't designed to handle that, so even the best video card won't help you when you get into numbers that high. And even if it does work, you still need to balance things for other factions, or at least as Mogan suggested, adjust the cost. Unless you just want to steamroll everyone, which IMO isn't much fun.

One other thing (and someone correct me if I'm getting pre-Marian/post-Marian aspects confused): both maniples (which numbered around 300?) and centuries (100) had their own commanders, centurians in the latter case (not sure what rank commanded maniples). In the case of centuries, every five would be further grouped into cohorts, commanded by another officer (military tribune? its been a while since I've studied Roman military structures). Anyway, the point is with the independent commands and division of troops, each maniple, century, or cohort would have its own level of leadership, experience, morale, equipment quality, etc. And this can be roughly represented in the game by having individual units in their normal sizes. On the battlefield this is further explemplified through troop morale. So, if you have an individual unit numbering 1200 men, especially if they're well experienced and equipped, then making that unit rout would be nearly impossible. On the other hand, if that number were divided into 12 centuries, 4 maniples, and/or 2 and 2/5 cohorts, that problem would go away, which would be more realistic and fair to other factions.

[Caesar Augustus]

Good work JaN! I think this is a really great start

Some other stuff you may wish to consider doing, to help balance things out a bit:

As a couple of people have already said, you may want to increase costs a little.
Perhaps also you could also increase the other unit strengths proportionally for the other factions, so that the Romans don't get a big advantage on the battlefield?

I really do think this is a great start though mate, and I don't wish my other suggestions to come across in a negative or otherwise unfriendly manner

[Carados]

Pah.

Just knock off 8 defence from the Hastati, Principles and Triarii and they shouldn't be a problem.

[JaNuZ99]

And did you reduce the equites to just 30 men? ^__^

agh you got me, consistency with my calvary was the only thing that kidna bugged me, after all while 30 men for my calvary would keep it consistent, the roman calvary sucks in quality, so quantity is a must if they are to be even remotely useful...

More important: did you also increase the costs of these units proportionally? If not, you just made the Romans an unstoppable war-machine, which there's no way to stop. Something along the lines of Zerg, not historical Roman domination.

To make myself clear in one word: OVERKILL!

i admit i didnt' but that is easily fixed, and i wouldn't say overkill.. but that might just be me being biased
i'll get on it

You're also going to have some very slow battles and probably freezes/crashes from having so many troops on the battlefield at once. The game wasn't designed to handle that, so even the best video card won't help you when you get into numbers that high. And even if it does work, you still need to balance things for other factions, or at least as Mogan suggested, adjust the cost. Unless you just want to steamroll everyone, which IMO isn't much fun.

One other thing (and someone correct me if I'm getting pre-Marian/post-Marian aspects confused): both maniples (which numbered around 300?) and centuries (100) had their own commanders, centurians in the latter case (not sure what rank commanded maniples). In the case of centuries, every five would be further grouped into cohorts, commanded by another officer (military tribune? its been a while since I've studied Roman military structures). Anyway, the point is with the independent commands and division of troops, each maniple, century, or cohort would have its own level of leadership, experience, morale, equipment quality, etc. And this can be roughly represented in the game by having individual units in their normal sizes. On the battlefield this is further explemplified through troop morale. So, if you have an individual unit numbering 1200 men, especially if they're well experienced and equipped, then making that unit rout would be nearly impossible. On the other hand, if that number were divided into 12 centuries, 4 maniples, and/or 2 and 2/5 cohorts, that problem would go away, which would be more realistic and fair to other factions.

actually i've just spent 13 hours playing straight (and my vid card is from 2006) i've had 22 battle on the battlemap, while there has been some lag, i've yet to get a crash

plus with ExRM making full stacks rare, and half stacks the norm, most computer's vid cards should be able to handle it reasonably well

I think your getting your wires crossed, the manipular system involved three lines of infantry, the first line was the hastati, it had 10 maniples,each had 120 men, (thus we have 1200 hastati) the same for the princeps, and for the triarii you had 10 half strength maniples (meaning 60 men in each maniple, totaling 6000)

(oh and of course you had 1200 skirmishers n front of the infantry line,which was comprised of three tribes in the 4th century became merged into the velites by our time frame, and you had alae troops at the wings, though as for the ordo, i'm not sure what became of them, but i think we represent the ordo troops with the marsi swordsmen,marsi spearmen, piecene spearmen,etc)

Its only till after the reforms when the new system came to use cohorts (a cohort had 160 men, each cohort was made up of two centuries, but these centuries had on average 80 men, not 100, these centuries were further divided into conturbenium, groups of 8 men) though the first cohort was the exception bc it was twice the strength of a normal cohort (meaning 320 men) and of course alae troops became auxiliaries and so on, but thats another matter.

I'm also already working on it, the other factions will get there dues, and my romans will be weakened () somewhat

Good work JaN! I think this is a really great start

Some other stuff you may wish to consider doing, to help balance things out a bit:

As a couple of people have already said, you may want to increase costs a little.
Perhaps also you could also increase the other unit strengths proportionally for the other factions, so that the Romans don't get a big advantage on the battlefield?

I really do think this is a great start though mate, and I don't wish my other suggestions to come across in a negative or otherwise unfriendly manner

ah well i guess i jumped the gun.. but it dosent' bother me at all m8, i'm always open to and welcome constructive criticism , and i'm having a blast, i really do enjoy tinkering with things (i've always had a bit of a mad scientist streak )

Actually i am working on re balancing my precious romans as I speak, i wont make them too weak, but for all those anti-romans players out there, it wont be easy for you either, and for my fellow roman lover, sadly we'll have to pay a pretty penny for our troops

Now i'm going to see how my equities match up to other faction's calvary considering they will now me 30-40 (l if i remember correctly, the number that is estimated is that the romans carried 300-400 in calvary, but my only question lies with ithe italic calvary.. i don't use them, and my equities fill the role of calvary just fine (At least in Northern Europe, elsewhere i'll use AOR missile, or whatever calvary is at hand in Africa, minor asia, and so on)

and i am thinking about how 0 turn recruitment might affect things too, if of course anyone uses it once i do the
re-balancing

BTW to Quinn, CC, and the other who've worked on ExRM and reads this, you guys rock!!

I have to say that just by looking at the stats, and units, and taking a peek at some of the other files in there,seeing the jungle of numbers, comments,its amazing! :

[Quinn Inuit]

Thanks! Carados is the one who did most of the new work on and comments in the EDU, but there are a few of mine in there. The DMB is where I really went to town on comments.

[Carados]

Thanks! Carados is the one who did most of the new work on and comments in the EDU, but there are a few of mine in there. The DMB is where I really went to town on comments.

We haven't released the systematised unit stats, though?

[Quinn Inuit]

We haven't released the systematised unit stats, though?

I just checked 3.5.3c and you're right. Hmmm...I could have sworn you released a beta example at some point. Oh, well. In that case, y'all are just going to have to trust me that the new EDU is excellent.

[Caesar Augustus]

Umm JaN, I thought a maniple was two centuries operating together, and a cohort was six centuries? I know it's only wikipedia, but I cba to look any further -

Maniple - admittedly I though this would be 160 men, but wiki says 120.
Cohort

[JaNuZ99]

Umm JaN, I thought a maniple was two centuries operating together, and a cohort was six centuries? I know it's only wikipedia, but I cba to look any further -

Maniple - admittedly I though this would be 160 men, but wiki says 120.
Cohort

i know it was two centuries working together, but i could of sworn that the total man power per maniple would be 120 not 160, which if each century is 80 men would be the result

edit: ah i see it seems that the size of the centuries is where the confusion comes from , from this article it seems the centuries averaged 60 men , and so it was it was then later that centuries numbered 80

http://www.unrv.com/military/organiz...can-legion.php

but i'll do some more digging to collaborate that

edit 2: ah it seems that the centuries (60 men) of hastati would them be aggregated to number a total of 80 as 20 Velites were mixed in with the hastati, something that was also mentioned in the previous link

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

edit 3: i suspect it might be outdated, can't really see when this was written tho, but this seems awfully informative, if your interested read this

[Carados]

Nooo

If you want, I could get a beta version together for them??
(might get one of my many peons to help, hyuk yuk yuk )

[Caesar Augustus]

Why do I get the feeling you're talking about me

[Quinn Inuit]

Nah, don't worry about it. At this point, I think we should focus on finishing. People would only be using it for a few months, anyway.

Hmmm...this is the last RTW.exe-compatible version, though. Maybe it's worth doing as a side project at some point.

[Caesar Augustus]

Perhaps we could put it out there as a 3.5.3d or something, if we include those slight changes I made to the 3.5.3 start diplomacy?

[JaNuZ99]

~~~~~~~~see edit 2

Well regardless if anyone even cares to use it for their own campaign, i can tell you, it feels really good commanding my romans...

i have 5 legions on standby (3 legions in the north) (2 in the south) and my new manpower means i don't have to supplement adding additional units to my legions to provide the manpower i need to crush my enemies. In the south they are finding out the hard way, i have my southern legions dealing with the Tarentum rebellion (theres just no way to siphon off the population in that place, and no matter what you build, its easier to let them revolt then exterminate them as punishment, than trying to keep them happy and then i can disband the half stack of skirmishers i used to garrison them to replenish the population AND lose the finical burden of that garrison force) and soon Croton shall follow...

its time i can focus on mining rather then keeping those bastards happy