Dump or Keep Peasant units?

[TaronQuinn]

Similar to my thread on Crusade/Jihad units, this one asks the question: Should we keep the Peasant units, or dump them and add in more interesting units.

There are about 5 standard peasant units, (Peasants, EE Peasants, ME Peasants, Se Peasants and Highland Rabble) and a few others that might or might not be considered peasants, but I'll leave those aside for now. Removing those 5 would open up some possibilities for other units, or even just allow the existing peasants to be beefed up.

My original goal was simply to replace every Peasant unit with its corresponding Town Militia unit, which is the closest approximation of strength and value while actually being useful in combat: an actual peasant levy representative of the Medieval period.

So keep the peasants, or throw them out?

TQ

[Seism]

As I understand, your goal is to replace different kinds of peasant units in game with one (and only) unit like Levy for every faction? Personally I don't use peasant units much so it's ok for me. But can you reskin so at least that Levy doesn't look the same for every country? And how will it affect the recruitment time for Levy (because Sergeant Spearmen time turn is long at the beginning and maybe someone likes using peasants as cannon fodders) ? (using BB)

[LaMuerte]

I voted change , as I never ever use them.Too unreliable for me. Militias are useless as well , but at least they manage to hold the line for a few crucial seconds.

[TaronQuinn]

No, actually my intention is to create/add-in 5 new units. I would simply take each culture's Town Militia unit and put that in the first castle barracks recruitment slot. So instead of Kiev recruiting their Eastern European Peasant from their castles, they would recruit their Spear Militia unit in BOTH their towns and cities, and England would recruit Town Militia from BOTH castles and towns, rather than Peasants in castles.
This would free up several unit slots to be used for whatever is needed/wanted in the game: i.e., a mercenary light cavalry in northern Europe, or a unique unit for France, or a new heavy infantry unit for the Muslim factions, etc. etc.

[Seism]

Not that I use peasants but the name "Town" Militia appearing at castle doesn't seem so appropriate Maybe changing their name needs to be done also. But it shouldn't apply for unique peasant unit like Highland Rabble etc (just that I like their name and they are unique ) Otherwise add some more new units is great

[Shajarr ad-Durr]

I never recruit peasants. I don't see the need for them.

[Taiji]

For DLV 6.2 or 6.3 beta I would dump them. But for BB I would keep them.

DLV has no detail in pool recharge rates, everything is available all the time.

But in BB I hope the player is sometimes forced to use units they would not usually use, so they actually have value as a penalty unit. I like that mechanic in terms of gameplay, and I also like the realistic nature of it.

I voted keep mainly for this reason, but if I have been silly and the poll is just about DLV then I retract my previous vote and instead vote to get rid of them

edit:

BTW I agree with Churchil - "The best argument against democracy is a 20 minute conversation with your average voter"

[Constantius]

I voted keep for the simple reason, peasants were used in medieval armies

[Tokus*Maximus]

How about changing standard spear unit too. Then create two varied spear types; Urban spears bonus fighting in settlements, but penalites fighting in country. Then you've a slot free (instead of peasants) for some spear-like Rural spears that gain bonus fighting in the open, but suffer somewhat within towns?

Just a thot.

Mr*T

[_Tartaros_]

i voted - change
i recruite them only for guarding city´s or hinterland castles to stop enemy armys for a turn

[Chivalry]

Keep them for enemy archers, they should focus of the enemy archers, and can weary enemies melee units.

[Kjertesvein]

I would dump al of them. They are historically uncorrect, but there should be 1 for europe and 1 for Levant/anatolia as "mercinary". In other words, the player goes from village to village and drags along connon fodder (slaves, half slaves, sons of small farmers) and throw them into combat.

That should open up unit slots, but still not strip away the lower cast entierly from combat. As such would be a sad game - to not have connon fodder.

~Wille

[Constantius]

I would dump al of them. They are historically uncorrect, but there should be 1 for europe and 1 for Levant/anatolia as "mercinary". In other words, the player goes from village to village and drags along connon fodder (slaves, half slaves, sons of small farmers) and throw them into combat.

That should open up unit slots, but still not strip away the lower cast entierly from combat. As such would be a sad game - to not have connon fodder.

~Wille

those are peasants/Serfs, it the whole basis of medieval feudal society

[TaronQuinn]

Hmmm @ Sivilombudsmannen...I Like that idea, and it kinda resonates with what I was thinking as well. Making the NE Peasant into a generic "Peasant Levy"/"Serf"/"Populus" unit for all the Christian factions, and then the ME Peasant into a generic Middle Eastern unit....leaving the EE Peasant, SE Peasant, and Highland Rabble to be turned into something else entirely.

Not sure about making them mercs, but I'll consider it; maybe low hiring price but high upkeep, to both reflect their absence from the land AND keep people from spamming them. The issue then being: what if the AI spams them? That'll take some thought.

Otherwise I was just gonna make Town Militia into a a basic "Militia" unit and have them be the first-tier castle AND first-tier town unit.

Keep the ideas coming folks!

TQ

[Kjertesvein]

those are peasants/Serfs, it the whole basis of medieval feudal society

What is your point?

Hmmm @ Sivilombudsmannen...I Like that idea, and it kinda resonates with what I was thinking as well. Making the NE Peasant into a generic "Peasant Levy"/"Serf"/"Populus" unit for all the Christian factions, and then the ME Peasant into a generic Middle Eastern unit....leaving the EE Peasant, SE Peasant, and Highland Rabble to be turned into something else entirely.

Not sure about making them mercs, but I'll consider it; maybe low hiring price but high upkeep, to both reflect their absence from the land AND keep people from spamming them. The issue then being: what if the AI spams them? That'll take some thought.

Otherwise I was just gonna make Town Militia into a a basic "Militia" unit and have them be the first-tier castle AND first-tier town unit.

Keep the ideas coming folks!

TQ

I don't see the AI spammin mercs now, so I highly doubt such an event ever taking place.

Judging by their current armour, I say they are either a lords slaves or the lowest form of peasentry, namly former slave familys. The third possibility are peasants with the purpose of being cannon fodder.

The former notion would be killing your own live stock with absolutly no recovery rate, which is absurde. It's like sending away your cattle towards the butcher with no gain.

The tenents slave familys (still under the same slave-lord) would be the lowest form of pesentry, and could go to war. However, they usually had the minimum requirment like a basic shield and a hand weapon.

The third option, is offcourse a forced war draft from a lord or chieftain who clearly doesn't own them, is an overseer of their land and fury or have any use in these folks afterwards.

In high medeieval Norway, there was law for minimum requirment for the basic (oars)man going to war/defence, which was a spear + a sword/axe, a round shield and a bow with 24 arrows for every row bench.

Since slaves are going out of fashion in this periode, I would say these are forced out of their (tenent)farms from a passing army with no good intion for their health nor recovery and therfor should be mercs. This is a better option rather then a stronghold who relly on those peasants for tax and calm obedience.

Offcourse, I'm just an insignificant old fart,

~Wille

[Constantius]

My point is, peasents were called to arms, were they not? And so should remain in game

[Kjertesvein]

My point is, peasents were called to arms, were they not? And so should remain in game

The current peasants you talk about are only peasants in name, and are ahistorical in their choice of armourment. Town Militias have a much better potential as filling the position of a "peasasnt". I have already explained this above.

Adding a Hinterland levy with the adecuate gear could fix the peasant problem.

~Wille

[PedroL]

My opinion is to merge peasants light infantry with Town militia. Or delete the Peasants light infantry and replace with other units.

[eatme]

I don't mind the idea of dumping units which are useless from gameplay perspective. However, it depends on replacement choice. Like Taiji mentioned, these units are historically correct and may offer additional unit recruitemnt balance given the conditions. And if a replacement ain't fit into campaign's time frame, making it attractive but cheesy unit choice, then it would be not accurate, and that's what counts in my book.

[TaronQuinn]

My ideas for replacements:

Peasants-----------> Knifemen..................Welsh troops of the Hundred Years War era, basically just the Welsh skirmisher from the Britannia campaign EXAMPLE
EE Peasants-------> Burgher Pikemen......Gives the HRE a late game option; an add-on from the Teutonic campaign, but better in used in DLV than in the Baltic EXAMPLE
SE Peasants-------> Abna Infantry...........A mace-armed unit from Broken Crescent, adds some diversity to the Muslim factions' rosters EXAMPLE
ME Peasants-------> Hospitaller Sergeants..Another BC unit, but intended for the Hospitaller guild, to add some further options and some new light cavalry EXAMPLE
Highland Rabble---> Ceathairne..............Proposed in the Lion Rampant roster mod, a javelin-armed, axe-wielding light infantryman for Scotland and maybe Mercenary recruitment EXAMPLE


These suggestions aren't written in stone, so feel free to offer your comments and point me at other options.

TQ