Religious units changes

[TaronQuinn]

Hail fellow DLVers,

I've been going through lots of unit changes lately, adding to both Aragon and Hedjaz/Abbasids, using the old Aztecs slots.

But I've also come across the religious units, (Pilgrims, Flagellants, Religious Fanatics, Mutatawwi'a) that have been staples since vanilla....and I'm doubting their usefullness. I know, I know, they're cannon fodder to bulk up ranks. But if you'll look at Broken Crescent, you'll see they have the Mutatawwi'a as a strong, well-armed unit.

So, the question is: keep these units as they are, or beef them up a little with new models, skins and stats to at least be decent representatives of Crusade/Jihad followers. Maybe just a spear and shield like Peasant Spearmen or even a Levy Archer unit to add some flavor haha.

No serious plans at this point, I just want to get the community's reactions.

[Shajarr ad-Durr]

I'm new here so I can't imagine my opinion counts for much. But for what its worth I think you should make them stronger. I can't speak for Christian armies, but in the counter-jihad of the 12th Century the Islamic religious volunteers were formidable, well armed and very courageous. They were probably a sort of heavy infantry; Yusuf ibn Ayyub Salah ad-Din made good use of them at Hattin in 1187.

At least, you could make them look better than the vanilla version when they look like orcs with clubs

[Seism]

For Christian army I think you should keep it (for the fanatics for God ). Crusade already gives them sergeant spearmen and knights so it's fine for me.

I never play Islam for long so can't say about their Jihad units.

[LaMuerte]

Just as with the peasant poll , I never use Pilgrims etc. in my crusades. I didn't vote because perhaps people out there really like them. As for Shajarr's post : I was always under the impression that Islamic religious volunteers were used as cannon fodder , weakly armed and armoured , very well motivated and very good at softening an enemy before unleashing the professionals.

[Kjertesvein]

Abstain

I use pilgrims, and when I do, I use alot of them Ordering a horde of clinically suicidal peasentry is allways good sport. I like their function and status, gameplay wise, but I wouldn't mind a change aslong as it flows with DLV-style (MADTAO's units if you know who I'm speaking of).

I don't really have a pov on religious units, historically speaking, as it's not in my field. Asking CBUR or BC would be my best answer.

~Wille

[TaronQuinn]

The tie is kinda what I expected, but I'll obviously leave this for awhile. Just to give people an idea of the alternatives: My feeling is that the Pilgrims, Flagellants and Fanatics are all so similar that they are all used as cannon fodder. Same with Mutatawwai'a; just recruit masses of them and send them to catch arrows with their chests.

I propose to leave the Pilgrims as-is. But change Flagellants to a Christian Soldier/Levy/whathaveyou: a simple, spear-armed infantry with shield. Slightly better morale and stats, but still well below even Spear Militia.

And then change Religious Fanatics into a missile unit, either a javelin or bow-armed skirmisher with similarly low stats. If M2:TW had slingers, I'd use that, or make them throw stones like the Apeuleuthori in Europa Barbarorum. A cheap archer unit to give Crusading armies a quick, cheap (but weak) missile component.

Finally, the Mutatawwai'a would gain some stronger stats and a more accurate skin/model, as in Broken Crescent. This would help make Jihads more formidable, especially since there are only 3 decent Muslim factions, as opposed to nearly a dozen Catholic factions that regularly get involved in Crusades.

Basically, I'd make it a minimod that would be optional, also so that people can test it and see what they think. But don't expect anything for a while yet.

TQ