A thought about a couple of units

[Caesar Augustus]

Hey all, it's me again!

I've been having a bit of a think about a couple of units and I figured I'd share them with you all.

First up - Hypaspists (or whatever they're called? You know, the Macedonian elite unit?). I've noticed that other equivalent units in other factions armies have the eagle (ie Chaonian Agema, Roman Triarii, etc), should this be added to this unit as well, for the sake of consistency?

Secondly, Roman First Cohorts. Personally, I'm not actually sure about these guys in game, and I shall tell you why. According to the Candel's guide, a Roman Legion is represented by 3 units. Which in theory would mean that the Legionary units in game represent 3 1/3 cohorts, right? With this in mind, and with the unit at its current size (I'm sure they're the same numerically as the other Marian legionaries), is it really appropriate to single out one cohort as "special"?

Discuss

[ricka83]

i would say yes, as one cohort bears the eagle

[Quinn Inuit]

Good idea about the eagles. I'm in favor of adding those.

I think the first cohorts are for the full-stack Marian armies, as opposed to the half-stack ones.

[Caesar Augustus]

Yay, I was useful

The problem I still have with the first cohorts is that would then mean that out of 4 legions (+cav + general), there would only be one first cohort. It's all good though, I can just add a house rule for me and not use them or something.

[JaNuZ99]

Yay, I was useful

The problem I still have with the first cohorts is that would then mean that out of 4 legions (+cav + general), there would only be one first cohort. It's all good though, I can just add a house rule for me and not use them or something.

i never use them particularly, though i will admit that sometime i recruit them and leave them in Rome, for display
(makes me feel like i am emulating the romans in my own way of showing off my wealth, if i can afford to have expensive, high profile troops, and still make over 15k then i must be doing something right)

* Ever marched your spotless first cohorts into a newly conquered city on the battle map even if they haven't don't any of the fighting whatsoever? similar to what Napoleon did with his imperial gaurd, i think thats hy he held off on them on his Russian campaign

[Carados]

I'd rather make the unit size very small (similar to the hypaspists for example), or remove them altogether. The legions were made up of 10 cohorts apparently, and only the first had the legion standard.

Of course, it does depend on how many soldiers each man, or stack, represents.

[Caesar Augustus]

That's pretty much what I was getting at Carados. If we're going by Candel's guide, then the 5,000 odd strong legion is represented by 3 units of legionaries (therefore 1,700ish men per unit irrespective of the unit size in game), is it really worth taking 480 of those men and making them special.

Am I correct in thinking that the Roman first cohort's were double strength by the way?

In any case, there were 6 centuries to a cohort = 480 men
10 cohorts to a legion = 4,800 / 5,280 (if 1st cohorts are double strength)
Therefore, by Candel's guide each unit of legionaries represents 1,600 men (or 1,760)

So is it really worth putting a proportion of that legion into a unit all of it's own, when the men themselves probably weren't that different in fighting ability to that of the other cohorts? In my opinion I feel the legion standards could be better represented either through knocking the morale of the legionary cohorts up slightly higher than presently (maybe just 1 or 2 points higher than their current values in 4.0), or through another ancillary granting a morale bonus? I'd be more in favour of the former.

I don't know if this would also help towards freeing up a little more space in the EDU etc?

Edit: By the way JaN, yes I do. I like to rub the newly conquered locals noses in Roman might

[GraaEminense]

Game mechanics-wise, having a separate First Cohort unit makes more sense than upping the morale across the board because the First Cohort can be routed, symboling the loss of the legion standard and the subsequent effect on morale.

Also, the presence of a unit that can be lost and has to be protected gives a better 'feel' for the presence of the standard on the battlefield.

I don't know Candel's legion composition rules, so I really don't know whether a full-size or a smaller unit makes more sense -game mechanics-wise, a smaller unit would be better to get the above effect. High cost/upkeep and a couple of experience bars would go far to make them a representation of the First Cohort.

I'm definitely no fan of even more ancillaries and complexities to the Roman faction.

Just my five sestertii.

[Shajarr ad-Durr]

Historically, the First Cohort in a Roman legion was twice the size of the other cohorts, having 960 instead of 480 men. I think the First Cohort should stay.

[Carados]

I don't know. I looked at wiki in a number of places and I suspect that might be the later legions. At first they might've all been equal in size.

I think the first cohorts are quite lethal. I could easily see them being tier 5 units. The rest are a mix of veterans, seasoned soldiers, and trained - but raw - recruits.

The biggest question, in my opinion, is how many soldiers does a single person represent, and on what unit size?
1:10?
1:20?

[Caesar Augustus]

So your legion composition (I really don't mean to sound like I'm being negative or aggressive here guys, please forgive me if I do - got some RL stuff going on), would favour (on Large Unit settings):

Roman first cohort + 2 cohorts representing the rest of the troops - 960 + 2,160 + 2,160

In which case the first cohort unit size should be less than half of the normal cohort size - maybe about 30 men or so? With 2 80 man units representing cohorts 2 - 10

EDIT: Just saw Carados' post, so I'll multiply this out:

Assuming my legion composition (and unit size) above, on large unit settings I get this

First cohort - 960 / 30 = 32
Other cohorts - 2,160 / 80 = 27

[Carados]

Ugh.
This is way past my bedtime, and I have a somewhat important interview on Thursday.

I'll get back to this later

[Caesar Augustus]

I think I'll come back to this too I think. Good luck with the interview!

[Quinn Inuit]

Here's what Candelarius said on the topic of proper composition of a Marian army:

Post-Marius legion looks like this:
Roman core: 1 General, 1 Aquilia Cohort, 9 Legionary Cohorts, 1 Equites and/or 1 General (youth)
Deployed thus:

You lose all the Italian troops, I believe, with the Marian reform event (though Italian troops didn't
actually disappear until some time after the law giving citizenship to all Italians who didn't fight Rome
in the Social Wars, in 88BC). This means you have to rely on AoR troops and mercenaries for your
auxilia.

Again a fairly equal number of them to your Romans (though sometimes there were many more). Get a
couple of units of local cavalry, 2-4 units of skirmishers and make up the rest with line troops to cover
your flanks.

[Caesar Augustus]

So 1 Roman legion goes from being represented by 1 Hastati, 1 Principe and 1 Triarii, to taking up the better part of a full stack (by the time you've got the support troops in) after the reform?

[Quinn Inuit]

So 1 Roman legion goes from being represented by 1 Hastati, 1 Principe and 1 Triarii, to taking up the better part of a full stack (by the time you've got the support troops in) after the reform?

No, this is just for the full stack version. He didn't really have much to say about the half stack.

And good luck on the interview, Carados! (in case you get this before my PM)

[Irenaeus]

I don't have anything to say about Roman units as the only thing I'm even vaguely knowledgeable on in this era is Britain, but I wanted to say good luck with the interview, Carados! Let us know how you get on

[JaNuZ99]

Game mechanics-wise, having a separate First Cohort unit makes more sense than upping the morale across the board because the First Cohort can be routed, symboling the loss of the legion standard and the subsequent effect on morale.

Also, the presence of a unit that can be lost and has to be protected gives a better 'feel' for the presence of the standard on the battlefield.

I don't know Candel's legion composition rules, so I really don't know whether a full-size or a smaller unit makes more sense -game mechanics-wise, a smaller unit would be better to get the above effect. High cost/upkeep and a couple of experience bars would go far to make them a representation of the First Cohort.

I'm definitely no fan of even more ancillaries and complexities to the Roman faction.

Just my five sestertii.

on this i agree, the "feel" makes it even more fun

the rules are in the docs in the ExRM folder

personally if you read my other thread i'm working on better representing the size of the legions () but
i gotta rebalance them and make them more expensive.. and make other faction untis stronger () ...why can't you all just accept roman supremacy?

but back on topic, the first cohort at the start was equal to the other cohorts in numbers, but was composed of some of the most experienced veterans, the elite of the elite , and thus they were considered useful for not only inspiring but could turn the tide of a battle if it was going awry.

it was maybe a few years later after the cohort system was introduced that they were doubled in size

but in game the only way IMO to represent them is keep them with the same size as the other cohort, but if its possible have them start off with higher morale and maybe experience? i mean i know that there are temples that give exp bonuses to the troops you recruit there, can't we somehow designate a specific unit to get a specific amount of exp right out the bat?

By the way JaN, yes I do. I like to rub the newly conquered locals noses in Roman might

i like how you think

[Caesar Augustus]

Sorry Quinn, I was being a bit thick there. Maybe going on TWC when I randomly wake up at 4 in the morning isn't a great idea lol.

[Carados]

Thank you for the good lucks ^__^


What I was trying to get at last night was how many legions does a full stack represent? Polybian legions were roughly 4800 men in strength, with a slightly larger allied contingent. Since that equates to 1 unit of velites, 1 unit of hastati, 1 of principles, 1 triarii and 1 equite - that is five unit slots for a single legion? A full stack is therefore roughly 4 legions and thus 20'000 men?