AI Moors need some help!?

[napoleonic]

not only they have to deal with 3 iberian factions, but usually either genoa or sicily whooped their asses on africa, they would usually be the 1st islamic faction to be destroyed.

they can handle iberia quite enough, but totally defenseless on africa, can something be done with this?

catholicized north africa by the start/mid 13 century is ruining the impression lol

and this is also why I always want a new faction and about 2 new provinces on north africa

[Ichon]

not only they have to deal with 3 iberian factions, but usually either genoa or sicily whooped their asses on africa, they would usually be the 1st islamic faction to be destroyed.

they can handle iberia quite enough, but totally defenseless on africa, can something be done with this?

catholicized north africa by the start/mid 13 century is ruining the impression lol

and this is also why I always want a new faction and about 2 new provinces on north africa

I rarely see Moors lose N Africa early. I've seen them pushed back by both Sicily and Genoa in various campaigns but if you keep playing they usually reclaim those area unless Crusade is called or human player interfere in some way.

AI generally has issues focus on more than 1 front... if Moors defend in N Africa more they lose ground in Iberia. Iberia is richer and makes more sense for them to defend there. It takes Genoa or Sicily quite long to march down the N African coast to Marrakesh but if Moors let Portugal or Castile push them back its over for them quite fast. That does usually happen but takes 100+ turns in 90% of the campaigns I've played. Maybe not quite historic date but still much closer than anywhere else on the map except Mongols wiping out K-Shah now in 6.3

[RollingWave]

in terms of starting postion, the key issue is that Tunis is much better devleoped than Alger right off the bat (higher population, will reach castle status much sooner). and Alger is the best Moors castle on NA.

So if both side just keep pushing foward, chances are the Moors will lose because Tunis will be in Sicilian hand and they'll be pumping out better units sooner. while Moors tend to be stuck at Baleb which doesn't even start with a pallisade(!) and get their armies killed either at that settlement by the Sicilians or lose their army trying to take Tunis.

I would suggest that they could either..

1. up the Alger starting population significantly so that it doesn't lag behind Tunis by THAT much.

and/or

2. Make Fes start as a castle (could change Mellia to a town or something, since it's pretty useless as a super low level wooden castle). this give the Moors a second line of defense on NA. but one that is far enough from both front line that it wont' be able to quickly overwhem any of the front.

[Gnostiko]

Playing as the Romans, the results I see from the other side of the Med is the Moors tend to be wiped out around 6,7/10 times, with the Spanish, Aragon, Portugal, and the Normans ganking them. They tend to survive more when a) the Normans get bogged down in Balkan warfare against the Venetians/Romans, and b) Spain and Aragon have to deal with France and Genoa.

[napoleonic]

moors defenseless territories on africa is the main culprit for their ultimate defeat

[RollingWave]

It's the thing with the Moors, they start with 3 castles and all of them are at very low population, wood castle level, in my experience it's usually 20+ turn before Granada reach 3000 pop and nearly 40+ (!!) turns before Alger reachs, and Mellia is even later than that lol (I almost always turn it into a town after a few turns of pumping out some peasent xbows anyway, it's pointless waiting for it to get to castle anyway)

it's not a huge issue as a human player because you simply set your priority and can make adjustments (though in one of my Moors campaign where my I accidently let Aragon get to Valencia before I did, it was a hell of a struggle before I turned the tide. (although in my current Crusader game the Moors seem to be owning, they already taken out both Portugal and Spain and it's only like 30+ turns in )

If they get Valencia early then it's not a huge problem, but otherwise they'll face the prospect of getting surronded by much higher level castles on all sides.


So again, the suggestion is that Fes really REALLY need to start as a higher level castle. and Alger may need to up their starting pop by 1000 or so as well.

They have a lot of money but most of their starting settlements are very vunerable (Silves and Murcia especially), and they cant access anything useful for quiet a while, the only good news is that they can pump desert cav and the pretty useful Nubian spearman.

I don't know about 1100, but nowadays Algeirs is a significantly more populated area than Tunis. maybe the issue is that the default farm level is set too low for Algiers. then again , the last thing the Moors need is more money

[romy]

I always disliked when the western european armies took part of North Africa , so I made the Moors more powerful : I increased their king's purse and their starting money in the descr_strat , now they are much more powerful and often conquer the Iberian Peninsula : there starts a nice battle between the Almohads and the kingdom of France , the new "wall of Christianity" , like 5 centuries earlier with Charles the Hammer... :-)

[AClockworkOrange]

How much did you give the Moors in their purse? I'm currently playing a late campaign as Portugal and they're giving me trouble. And by trouble I mean constant bombarding of armies. Their armies suck, though. They show up to battle with crossbow militia, spear militia, and a couple of Fari cavalry. Every once in a while, they'll have mounted and/or dismounted Christian Guard. So, they're pretty easy to deal with.

Does increasing their purse help with lousy choices for their army?

[romy]

122.000 denari at the start of the campaign and 4600 as king's purse , I play the late era campaign , then their troops are quite more powerful and can handle iberian armies.Setting their money like that allow them to build more buildings , and then more troops available. :-)

[napoleonic]

little question that still connected to this thread : what make some faction could expand with unpredictable direction while some others are too single direction minded?

I've seen byz took alexandria by themselves, genoa rampaging africa, sicily invade greece, norway invade britain, etc

but some factions like the moors are always doing what they usually do, waging wars on iberia; I've never seen moors fighting egypt, or vice versa, never seen venice invade sicily, or england invade anything other than france, or turks/egypt invade kwarezm etc

why is that

[AClockworkOrange]

@romy - Thanks! Agreed - Christian Guard (mounted and dismounted) are tough. Fari Cavalry can tear down troops.

@napoleonic - I don't know...perhaps the distance between the nearest Moor castle and Egypt is too far? Maybe the Moors need prefer naval invasions set to yes? N Africa is such a large area. Perhaps someone that mods would know the answer...

[romy]

I think it's because of the relations between the factions at the start of the game.
For example : Iberian kingdoms won't have any good relations with the Almohads while Almohads will have a good relation with the Fatimids.Same thing between Italian states and HRE , etc. :-)

I'm maybe wrong though..

[Gorrrrrn]

have people tried editing the descr_strat to give moors better buildings, ports, etc so they don't waste money on so many buildings.

better buildings could allow for better troops at start of campaign allowing them to expand more quickly?

also recommend roads for silves and murcia

[AClockworkOrange]

@Rozanov - I hadn't thought about what you suggested, but it sounds like a good idea. Thanks ;-)

[RollingWave]

still though, in my two most recent VH/VH campaign (as Lithuania and the Crusader states, so completely detached from the Iberian area, although it is 6.3) the Moors owned, they destroyed Portugal and Spain much faster than I did in most of my own Moors VH/VH ... (though I guess in one of them I did make both of them my vassal roughly around the same time span)

[Zanius]

In my Danish Campaign the Moors have conquered all of the Iberian peninsula, and most of southern France all the way to Marseilles.

[smitty]

I really only play Late Era Campaigns and with those, the Moors seem to dominate 9 times out of 10. Without Sicily putting pressure on Tunis and Tripoli the Moors are able to put all of their power into Iberia. So, perhaps the answer lies in nerfing Sicily Or making their coastal provinces more defensible...

[napoleonic]

well in my campaigns, it's actually genoa and aragon who always slowly but eventually bring doom to moors

for some reason both genoa and aragon always compete over islands on western mediterranean and north africa

[Ponti]

At Early era Moors Ai suck as hell I think some renovation their economy is utterly needed.I think add gold mines and port in Marrakesh province will be a good solution and upgrade one of their castle at the beginning of game.Because of Sicilian expansion in North Africa gives Moors one more very powerful enemy and Ai not have any solution for that.

At Late Era Moors owned,they are very strong and controlling situation.