Hero Renders

[Zhuge_Liang]

Is this more accurate? Achilles and Hector in thier famous battle.

They just look like naked hoplites. I'm certain the same thing applies, they are from a completely different era and the people/person who made it was basing it on what they knew, not what had happened. Also none of the warriors would have fought naked, this was just an artistic stylised view of brave warriors.

[chaos]

Is this more accurate? At least he is not blonde on this vase painting. I have no problem with the Brad Pitt version, after all no one knows what color Achilles hair was. Its possible that the Achilles character is entirely mythical anyway - do you really believe that his mother,Thetis, was an immortal sea nymph as claimed in Homer's Illiad?

[Zhuge_Liang]

Of course he didn't exist, none of the characters from the illiad did, and the trojan war was most likely based off a similar event. One of my achillies' is historically accurate, the other looks good.

[SARMATIAN LEADER]

it would be better to base your mod and your whole work in it,not in this stupid movie,who ''raped''the true story of Homer's Iliad,but in the books of Homer and in the Greek Mythology books generally!and trust me you will find more interesting things than the movie

[Gunno_Desk]

Couldn't agree more. I spend the whole time watching the movie citing how inacurate it is...... Course inside, I secretly enjoy all the awesome action flicks!!!

And I got no prob with brad pitt resembling Achilles

[SigniferOne]

Homer says, "the blonde-haired Achilles". Who here hasn't read their Iliad, to be working on this mod?

[Zenith Darksea]

Oh dear, what a fuss. The clearest thing that comes out of this is that none of you are true classicists (this is where I get to sound pompous). I'll start with the vase painting - I wouldn't use the artistic imagination of a sixth, fifth or fourth century vase painter as any sort of evidence for Achilles' appearance at all. For a start, he couldn't even get the right sort of armour (the linothorax was not worn in the Bronze Age of Greece, or at least not in that form).

Secondly, Achilles most emphatically did not exist in real life. There is no 'possibly' about it.

Sarmatian Leader, I have a few things to say about your sentiment there. You try and base a mod entirely on the Iliad. Were you to read the work (as I have), you'd find the following things - it only covers three or four days of war, doesn't give many details about any aspect of war beyond the combat of individual heroes (for instance, Homer doesn't even mention the subject of the army's supplies and scarcely ever touches upon the nature of the armies' formations and battle lines) and he's not always enormously loquacious on things like panoplial ornamentation.

this stupid movie,who ''raped''the true story of Homer's Iliad,but in the books of Homer and in the Greek Mythology books generally!

Have you read the Iliad? Have you read these 'Greek Mythology books'? What 'Greek Mythology books' are these? Perhaps you are referring to the Metamorphoses of Ovid (written approx. 700 years after Homer), the poems of Callimachus (500 years after him) or maybe Dieuchidas of Megara (a mere 300 years after him)? Perhaps you're thinking of Aelian's works? To be honest, I doubt that you are. You must surely be referring to the other poems of the Trojan Cycle that were roughly contemporaneous with Homer, such as the Cypria or the Aethiopis. Even the swiftest comparison of the works of Homer with all the other survivng fragments of that particular epic cycle will reveal to you that the Iliad is extremely unlike its contemporaries (I assume that you're well acquainted with the nature of Greek oral poetry; if not, I recommend that you read J.A. Davison's article 'Peistratus and Homer' in TAPhA 86 [1955] and A. Lesky's excellent book 'A History of Greek Literature' [London 1966]) in subject matter and treatment. In short however, epic poems were based in a solid tradition of poetry, each one based closely on other poems that preceded it (and, contrary to popular opinion, it seems likely that 'Homer' [or rather the collective of poets that has today come to be known as the poet 'Homer', for he was not one man] did write the Iliad down).

This statement is for all those people who feel that the film 'raped' (as you so vividly put it) Homer's epic poem - the Iliad is not like the other poems of its period. The vast amount of innovation in the poem marks it out completely from the rest of Greek mythic poetry of the time (such as those that I have alread mentioned - see 'Epicorum Graecorum Fragmenta' [assembled and edited by my own tutor, Dr Malcolm Davies, as it so happens] for more details). It would not be wrong to say that Homer took Greek poetry in a completely new direction. No doubt there were those at the time who complained that Homer 'raped' the epic cycle. However, as Dr Patrick Finglass (of All Souls College, Oxford) put it recently, Homer himself would probably have loved the film (after he'd got over his terror at seeing the technology, of course). Let's face it, if you've read the Iliad (and I've read it in Greek), you will appreciate that it would make a terrible film. For oral poetry it's good, but for a modern film for a modern audience, it would be boring and would take advantage of none of the new opportunities accorded to it by film. Perhaps he wouldn't agree with all of it, but I've no doubt that he'd enjoy the absolutely necessary innovation of the film.

Of course, the film was not called 'The Iliad'. It was called 'Troy'. If this were placed into the proper context of the Trojan Epic Cycle, rather than being constantly compared to the Iliad (which none of the critics have seemingly read), people would see that it was actually a good film, and would appreciate its innovations just as much as they would appreciate Homer's innovations (incidentally, Virgil is far better than Homer; don't bother with the Iliad, read the Aeneid!)

Course inside, I secretly enjoy all the awesome action flicks!!!

Well, quite.

[Zhuge_Liang]

At last. Thats the end of that then.

[SigniferOne]

Zenith, not to make a Vestigia Vetustatis thread here, but I thought I'd reply to your post. Although I am generally in agreement with your post, more actually with the second part, I think you were too quick to dismiss Homer.

Secondly, Achilles most emphatically did not exist in real life. There is no 'possibly' about it.

Linear B inscriptions have been found, with names like Agamemnon and Achilles. Were these inscriptions referring to the actual personages from the Iliad? Possibly, possibly not. What they do prove incontrovertibly is that these names were real and existed, and belonged to men who were of big enough stature to have their names inscribed onto stelae.

Secondly, Hittite inscriptions have been found that refer to a group of people called the Acheaians, which is Hittite for the Achaeans, Homer's name for the Greeks. Hittite inscriptions also have record of trade with the city Ilia, and have records of letters to Prince Alexander from that city, which as you know is the name for Paris in the Iliad.

Thirdly, you can't dismiss the entirety of the Iliad as all inherently false unless proven otherwise. The poet at least deserves better.

And finally, on the applicability of the Iliad to this mod: I would not say that it's as useless as you say. First and foremost, it provides a dramatization of the great wars in the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age, and thus provides motivation for these modders working so hard. Can other writings and poems help? Sure. But Iliad is the oldest, and its dramatization is certainly very epic (in the modern sense). Descriptions of clothes, environments, etc, can be found in it, there are mentions of the Trojan and Greek lines pushing against each other which seems to be a mention of the proto-phalanx, there are endless descriptions of weapons etc. The geographical accuracy in the Iliad is so great that Schliemann was able to discover the ancient city based on Homer's descriptions alone.

So in general, the book is a valuable and inspiring aid on the Trojan war, not to mention being the oldest, the most complete, and the most venerated by the ancient Greeks themselves.

[Zenith Darksea]

First off, let me tell you that I myself was the historical researcher and one of the main designers of the mod, so I'm well acquainted with the problem. I've had a lot of time to think about it, and I didn't dismiss Homer at all. I merely found that I had to add a considerable amount to what he tells us. I fully appreciate the historical basis of the Iliad, and agree with everything you say about the inscriptions and so forth. I would like to note though that while the inscriptions may refer to people such as Daedalus, Achilles and Alexander, they could be referring to i) a person upon whom the epic cycle (note that I do not say 'Homer' here) was based ii) someone else who happened to have the same name (there were many people with these names) iii) the mythical character from the epic cycle - this is more likely than the idea that they would be referring to Achilles, the son of Thetis and lover of Patroclus who slays Hector beneath the walls of Ilium and who was almost immortal (interestingly, Homer never mentions his immortality), in a factual context. It is entirely probable that the Trojan cycle was based on history, but that doesn't make the Iliad a work of history. If you study it and other fragments from that cycle, you'll see that innovation was often heavy, with some poets coming up with totally conflicting stories. The Iliad is rather like Umberto Eco's novel 'Baudolino' in that respect.

So in general, the book is a valuable and inspiring aid on the Trojan war, not to mention being the oldest, the most complete, and the most venerated by the ancient Greeks themselves.

Inspiring aid, yes. Most complete? In the sense that we have all of it (with the odd question mark here and there), it is, though in the sense of the information of the actual practice of warfare, certainly not. Most venerated? Probably. Oldest? No, I'm afraid not. The Cypria and others pre-date the Iliad (though they survive largely as fragments). Indeed, Oxford classicists are agreed now that Hesiod also pre-dates Homer.

[Zenith Darksea]

Erm, I don't think that we can be that true to myth (especially considering the fact that the myths themselves are often confused and self-contradictory). Besides, he killed cows, not sheep.

[Zhuge_Liang]

The small details of such things are purely academic and even what signiferOne is saying won't really effect the mod.

[Prof]

this is what wikipedia and my teachers say (sheep...not cows)^^

When he wakes up, he becomes mad and goes to a group of sheep, and slaughters them, imagining they are the Trojan leaders, as well as Odysseus and Agamemnon. When he comes to his senses, covered in blood, and realises what he did, he decides that he prefers to kill himself rather than to live in shame.

[Dominus Latronis of Troy]

Both Achilles look great - Diomedes is awesome.....

is that all the hero's that will be in there..

[Zhuge_Liang]

Due to model limitations yes. we already have a huge variety of units which takes up a lot of model space (limit 255). We are taking up perhaps 20+ models with captains and heros (who will be the generals). I'm coding them at the moment, but for some reason i can't get the generals bodyguard units to include a general... nvm, i'll sort it out.

[Zenith Darksea]

Actually, I've just checked Sophocles' Ajax, and it was a combination of sheep and cows. I'll put a transliteration of the Greek here:

"...tous zontas au desmoisi sundesas boon poimnas te pasas eis domous komizetai..."

"...having bound together all the living animals from the oxen and the flock [of sheep] he took them home..."
Soph. Ajax 62-3 (my own translation, admittedly not perfectly idiomatic)

So there you have it. Also see the Cena Trimalchionis in the Satyricon of Titus Petronius Niger, in which the actor portraying Ajax in this scene slays an ox.

Not that this has any particular bearing on the mod.

[Prof]

I've got some other questions about the heroes:

1.
how big will aias be?

2.
will the heroes just be the generals of will you create "special units" for each faction which are called "guard of ***" and give them an officer with the heroes' skin and model and make them super strong?

[Zhuge_Liang]

The heros will be the generals, for the first version at least. They will be given atributes to fit their character, or that is the plan.

[Dominus Latronis of Troy]

oh wow thats cool....that will be interesting...thanks Zhuge_Liang

[Zhuge_Liang]

pah, ignore this post.