Broken AI Diplomacy?

[Trismus]

I am currently playing Crusader States (VH/VH, BGR, RR/RC, Savage AI, longer assimilation, limited activites). It is the my best TW experience , but I found there is strange behavior of AI and in a diplomacy terms.

I play little RP, so no alliances with muslims and I am uder constant pressure. At beggining diplomacy was hard, no one liked me, Byzantine Empire did not want even trade rights. Now I got 56 turn and I managed survive, but still I am weakest faction in region.

After my first war with Fatimids I took Al Aqaba and Tayma. I could not take Gaza because Fatimids dug in there, I could win on open field quite easy, but taking castles with crappy infantry is blood bath, and I was too weak for such casualities. So after crusade England take Gaza and I got nice buffer. Each time Fatimids attack me, there is something wrong with diplomacy.
After first war they lost two provinces and paid me a little tribute, it was ok .Now I see they want Al Aqaba back but after second war and only one battle they paid me instantly around 5k. Third war was a joke, Fatimids tiny army was mauled by England and the they paid me around 8k.
Fourth, I've just sent diplomat and they stopped siege of Al Aqaba, I did not take even money (but I could). So why they broke truce and try attack me if they want peace and I am very generous when I offer them ceasefire alone?

Now I got the same with Seljuk Sultanate. First war I was not in position to defend myself so I gave them Edessa (isolated and lost anyway) They got 3X more provinces, no other wars.
A few turns later I was in deep debt, but I managed to gather a small but effective army and waited. They did not disappointed me and launch an invasion. I called cursade to Baghdad, was in alliance with Byzantine and they were also in war in all neighbours.
So why AI decided to attack?. After three battles and my one heroic victory I've taken tribute 2.1K for 15 turns. Now thanks to crusade tax I've rebuild my economy and army and I decided to join crusade so truce ends.
I invaded Damascus, and crusade ends with victory of Poland. I sent diplomat and I am very generous offering peace. Seljuks agreed to give me Aleppo castle (ready for upgrade and extra free five units of Turkish Horse Archers inside). I need reload because it is too easy (I never reload).

I've been playing TW games for a long time and AI diplomacy never gave up their provinces so easy. I'm sill a little mouse compared to Seljuks, they got 5x larger military rating , 3x more provincies. Something with AI and diplomacy terms must be broken.

[Beowulf1990]

Try opening up that text, then i'll read it.

[Mornai]

Try opening up that text, then i'll read it.

That's not helping much, now is it? English may not be Trismus' first language, and even though it's not in paragraph form, i could read it clear as day.

Anyway, the AI can indeed be strange sometimes. Some of it's features might be hardcoded and/or really hard to fix(such as the AI moving small one 1-3 unit stacks out of their settlements constantly). I can't get a clear image of what's going on here, do you think you could post some screenshots? You say the Byzantines are at war with your neighbors, where are they on the campaign map? Also, are you saying they gave you settlements in exchange for a ceasefire? I don't think that they would normally do such a thing unless they're in a bad situation and need some time to breathe.

If there aren't many enemies bordering them, maybe they're simply trying to take back their settlements. Are you forcing the ceasefires from them? Or are the offers "generous"? If you offer them plenty of money and/or regions, they may accept it, but still want more settlements and go to war with you the next turn.

I'm not quite sure what's going on here, sorry if I haven't helped you much, but i can't really offer any insights as to what the problem is without a clear image of the situation(maybe that's just me not reading the post properly though).

[Beowulf1990]

I just have a problem with wall-o-text format i guess. I can't read it and is it really that hard to press enter every 5-6 sentences?

[Alpha Zeke]

I just have a problem with wall-o-text format i guess. I can't read it and is it really that hard to press enter every 5-6 sentences?

Is it really that hard to understand he may not even know of that concept. No need to be rude.

[Beowulf1990]

Is it really that hard to understand he may not even know of that concept. No need to be rude.

In my opinion if you don't know of the CONCEPT of leaving a line open between sections of text then you have no bussiness writing until you completed your elementary education

Sorry to be rude, but that's what i think.

[Alpha Zeke]

hey, his age isnt listed
i started coming here when i was 8. nuff said.

[bɑne]

hey, his age isnt listed
i started coming here when i was 8. nuff said.

I thought the minimum age was 13. Well... thats a piece of information that lights up some things in a different way.

Trismus, maybe name some other kingdoms mods you are comparing to as an example.
In my humble opinion the diplomatic ai was a neglected feature right out of the box ( nonaggression pacts? diplomatic war declaration? )

[Trismus]

I agree, diplomacy never was a strong side TW.

I do not compare SS AI to any mods but only an aspect of diplomatic terms. As a matter of fact whole AI of Stainless Steel is best I've ever seen in mods (mainly: Deus Lo Vult, Thera, Third Age).

But also I've never seen AI giving money and provinces throught diplomacy so easly. Especially when I am a weaker side of conflict.

[Stario]

I am currently playing Crusader States (VH/VH, BGR, RR/RC, Savage AI, longer assimilation, limited activites). It is the my best TW experience , but I found there is strange behavior of AI and in a diplomacy terms. I play little RP, so no alliances with muslims and I am uder constant pressure. At beggining diplomacy was hard, no one liked me, Byzantine Empire did not want even trade rights. Now I got 56 turn and I managed survive, but still I am weakest faction in region. After my first war with Fatimids I took Al Aqaba and Tayma. I could not take Gaza because Fatimids dug in there, I could win on open field quite easy, but taking cities with crappy infantry is blood bath, and I was too weak for such casualities. So after crusade England take Gaza and I got nice buffer. Now each time Fatimids attack me, there is something wrong with diplomacy. After first war they lost two provinces and paid me a little tribute, it was ok .Now I see they want Al Aqaba back but after second war and only one battle they paid me instantly around 5k. Third war was a joke, Fatimids tiny army was mauled by England and the they paid me around 8k. Fourth, I've just sent diplomat and they stopped siege of Al Aqaba, I did not take even money (but I could). So why they broke truce and try attack me if they want peace and I am very generous when I offer them ceasefire alone?
Now I got the same with Seljuk Sultanate. First war I was not in position to defend myself so I gave them Edessa (isolated and lost anyway) They got 3X more provinces, no other wars. A few turns later I was in deep debt, but I managed to gather a small but effective army and waited. They did not disappointed me and launch an invasion. I called cursade to Baghdad, was in alliance with Byzantine and they were also in war in all neighbours. So why AI decided to attack?. After three battles and my one heroic victory I've taken tribute 2.1K for 15 turns. Now thanks to crusade tax I've rebuild my economy and army and I've decided to join crusade so truce ends. I've invaded Damascus, and crusade ends with victory of Poland. I sent diplomat and I am very generous offering peace so now I have free Aleppo castle (ready for upgrade and extra free five units of Turkish Horse Archers). I need reload because it is too easy (I never reload).
I've been playing TW games a long time and AI diplomacy never gave up their provinces so easy. I'm sill a little mouse compared to Seljuks, they got 5x larger military rating , 3x more provincies. Something with AI and diplomacy must be broken.

If you don't have an alliance and only opt for trade agreement and you keep a low garrison, the AI that borders that garrison will in time attack. In fact in my games as England VH/M BGRIV, I purposely leave low garrison at York. Usually by turn 4-5 the Scots attack York. I then destroy the Scots with my reinforcement army from Nottingham. The Pope gets pissed, & within turn 12-15 the Scots come back for a truce that usually ends up costing them around 10K; a nice boost to my royal coffers. My point is low garrisons will lead to the bordering AI attacking, unless you have Alliance (even than the AI can still backstab). The AI is opportunistic so keep a reasonable garrison if your settlement boarders the AI to avoid repeated attacks; of course sometimes letting the AI attack and start a war can be a good way of increasing ones treasury.

[Trismus]

@Kungfool and Mornai
It is my first Stainles Steel game and maybe I am a little disappointed with AI (I have expect more). Anyway It is still an outstanding mod. If AI features might be hardcoded, so we must enjoy what we have.



@Beowulf1990
How someting what can be read in 15 sec could be a wall of text.
I am in good humour and I'll edit my post for You and another internet generation mentals.

Sorry but I am just writting machine and sometimes I forget about silly forms and netiquette. And yes my English still sucks, it is not my primary (and even secondary) language

[Beowulf1990]

@Beowulf1990
How someting what can be read in 15 sec could be a wall of text.
I am in good humour and I'll edit my post for You and another internet generation mentals.

Sorry but I am just writting machine and sometimes I forget about silly forms and netiquette. And yes my English still sucks, it is not my primary (and even secondary) language

Well i supposse i am a bit of a 'mental' as you describe
I think it's becasue English isn't my native language either yet I dare say I can speak it just as well now. I guess I just forget it isn't that easy for everyone.

And your post is MUCH easier to read now

[Trismus]

I've done some research. I backstabbed Seljuks, started siege a city and I sent a diplo.

My offert(balanced): ceasefire, trade, Edessa
Savage AI response: ceasefire, trade, Edessa, their demad: 5600 - too easy
Gracul AI response: ceasefire, trade, Edessa, their demad: 9400/3 turns - This is not demanding condition.

Next turn and next backstab.

My offert(balanced): ceasefire, trade, Kutaisi (random city in Georgia)
Savage AI response: ceasefire, trade, Edessa, their demad:8400/2 turns
Gracul AI: At least rejected.
Every time I could form alliance with them.

Next I backstabbed Byzantine Empire (my ally)
My offert(balanced): ceasefire, trade, 10000 and Tortosa
Gracul AI response: ceasefire, trade, Tortosa, their demand: 8500/3 turns

[For England Men]

I have tested the above when I first installed the mod and it does work affectively, try garrisoning a border province that borders on a neutral faction you don't have good relations with, with 8 units or more, save and end turn couple of times no attack. now reload and go through same turns with only 1 unit in that province and they will attack.

York as england is easiest example fo this as it is scotlands closest city so you know which one they will attack.

[bɑne]

If your up for a bit of testing save your game, start the ss_setup and switch your campaign AI to graculs (keep everything else the same).
Don't save in the same slot after that just in case. Then try to con the AI out of their shirts again. If something goes wrong you can always revert to your old settings and that backup save.