not a bug but..

[Eretna Beg]

I think armor points must be more realistic

for example Turks have half plate mail (Sipahis, foot archers, spearmen etc.) but they have only 7-8 armor points and Mongols have lamellar amor and their amors 11 or less than 11

so, in next patch armor points must be fix

[Eretna Beg]

any answer? will you change to armor points

[Caesar Clivus]

For a start there is no need to pointlessly bump your thread 3 hours after you post.

Secondly, armour values are worked out from real world data on how much energy of an attack different materials could absorb. There are also other factors including the quality of the unit that can change armour values.

Can you give specific examples of what you mean (i.e. which units specifically are you referring to?)

[Eretna Beg]

Mongol

Khorchi, Merguen, Keshik, Turhagut

most of them have lamellar armor and armored horse but they dont have high armor points

Kypchak

Bekh, Khagan Druzhina

Kypchak units are very weak some of them must be better

Turk

Heavy archers, Heavy spearmen, Janissaries, Sipahi lancers, Sipahi archers, Qapukulu, Iqta'dar

most of them have half plate but their armor points are lesser than european soldiers for example Iqta'dar and Qapukulu have same armor but different armor points, both of them have half plate and full armored horse but their armor points are bad.

[Alpha Zeke]

Isn't there like armor skill or something that factors into it?

[Caesar Clivus]

There is nothing wrong with the armour values. The armour system in 6.3 is a LOT more complex than before. Also, armoured horses contribute to the armour values, which is probably the main source of the discrepancies you're talking about. I suggest you take a look at the RealCombat guide: http://rapidshare.com/files/41268037..._1.8_Guide.pdf

[Buri Shad]

one of teutonic knights have 9 attack 19 defence and best mongol cavalry(ha) have only 3 attack 12 defence! Mongols ed european knights a lot of time so is this realistic?

[S-te-Fan]

one of teutonic knights have 9 attack 19 defence and best mongol cavalry(ha) have only 3 attack 12 defence! Mongols ed european knights a lot of time so is this realistic?

I'ts because the mongols didn't use brute force, but strategy.

[Buri Shad]

I'ts because the mongols didn't use brute force, but strategy.

lol

Mongol ha kills 2 or 3 knights by arrow. later ha out of ammo and all of Mongols kills by knights! sooo realistic(!)

[Navajo Joe]

lol

Mongol ha kills 2 or 3 knights by arrow. later ha out of ammo and all of Mongols kills by knights! sooo realistic(!)

Buri Shad,

Who controlled the Mongol Army, you or the AI?

[Buri Shad]

Buri Shad,

Who controlled the Mongol Army, you or the AI?

me! when I try to units in custom play Mongols ha can kill only 2-3 maybe 4 knights

and melee fight Mongols ha kills max 10 knights

[Caesar Clivus]

one of teutonic knights have 9 attack 19 defence and best mongol cavalry(ha) have only 3 attack 12 defence! Mongols ed european knights a lot of time so is this realistic?

Yes. The RealCombat system of unit stats uses real world data to determine attack and defense values. Attack values are determined by how much energy a weapon could generate in an attack. Armour values are determined by how much energy different materials could absorb.

Just looking at unit stats does not give the full picture when comparing units. There are many other factors that also come into play.

In the above example, you are also comparing a horse archer unit with a knight. That's like comparing chalk and cheese.

[Buri Shad]

In the above example, you are also comparing a horse archer unit with a knight. That's like comparing chalk and cheese.

ok I'll try Mongol heavy cav against teutonic (and other european) knights in custom battle.

[Buri Shad]

Mongol heavy cavalry vs teutonic knights

before the battle

Mongols have 103 men
teutonics have 63 men

after the battle

[AnthoniusII]

It has to do with advandages and disadvandages of each faction's roster.
For example. Two units of skilled horsearchers could eliminate those knights without loosing even one solldier but...If knights managed to push those archers in a narrow place then it would be the opposite.
None horsearher should be ascape.
Now about same "nature" units such knights and heavy mongol unit.
Is the mongols heavy unit in the same value as the knights?
A description "heavy" is not enough.
Heavy cavalry are byzantine Stratiotae but they should not be equal in any kind of knights. But they should be able to eliminate any kind of mounted sergeants for example.

[Buri Shad]

Is the mongols heavy unit in the same value as the knights?

heaviest Mongol cavalry! against teutonic knights

the best Mongol cavalries value lesser than second class european knights

[Navajo Joe]

Buri Shad,

Teutonic Knights are heavily armoured targets and a Mongol Heavy Lancer would be destroyed, the Mongols did noy use Partial or Full Plate. The Teutonic Knights can be destroyed as AntoniusII as stated, by getting fast moving missile cavarly behind them and fire at their exposed backs. They will then drop like flies, also Javelin units are effective against these armoured units.

Recently I played as Sweden against the Teutons, I held their knights with my Spearmen, got my Mounted Crossbow behind and voila, they start falling off their horses

[Buri Shad]

Buri Shad,
the Mongols did noy use Partial or Full Plate.

but lamellar!

Mongol soldiers value must be higher, look at Broken Crescent for Mongol soldiers values.

[Caesar Clivus]

but lamellar!

Mongol soldiers value must be higher, look at Broken Crescent for Mongol soldiers values.

Why? SS uses the RealCombat system of stats, worked out from real world data. You can't compare one mod's stats with another if they use different ways of working out the stats. If you can produce real evidence of your claims about why the mongols should have higher armour values please do.

Seeing as this is now a discussion about armour and not bugs, I'm going to move this to the main SS forum.

[Alpha Zeke]

This went OT at post 7. Also Ceaser, you don't like grated chalk with your spaghetti?

More seriously, are we talking about mounted knights or foot knights? Also, the Mongols could keep away from knights and hit them at all angels, thats why they one. They came from the east, of course they are not going to take a sword designed to pierce full plate like its nothing.