Templars and the Crusader States

[Seether]

This poll is not in regard to the Templar units from the Chapter Houses or the Chapter Houses themselves; this is only for the Templar Units attached to the Crusader States roster.

In the interest of creating a more historical Crusader States roster, which includes European nobility in the form of Heavy Knights and Infantry, it has been discussed whether to axe certain Templar units in the Crusader States roster. Currently the Crusader States roster is very dependent upon it's Templar units, but that is mainly due to the fact that the Crusader States roster is otherwise very weak and unhistorical. While the Templars are cool and did play some role in the Crusades era, I feel that their implementation is flawed by the amount of units. So in the interest of creating a more historical Crusader States roster, how do you feel about cutting all, or some, of the Templar units?

FYI, the units is question are:
Templar Longbowmen
Templar Crossbowmen
Templar Squires
Templar Zweihanders
Templar Sergeants
Templar Heavy Spearmen
Templar Guard

[Dagda]

Those are some of their best units. So if you're cutting them then you better replace them with something viable.

And MTW 2 is not even remotely a historically accurate game. Let's stop pretending.

[Sanderlicious]

I am up for a more historically accurate Crusader state as I feel the sheet amount of templars represented is overbearing. I would keep a couple available though as they are cool and did play at least some part in Crusade history.

Question: Is the removal of some of these units so that unit slots can be opened up for Georgia? Or is the idea to replace the Templar units with completely new models and therefore not opening up slots?
In short, is this connected to the Georgia project?

[Seether]

In short, is this connected to the Georgia project?

Mebe

[Gogolometro]

Jerusalim sucks without them. In fact anything you want, at late campaign, because lack of handgunners and the meeting with timurids, Jerusalim is in a very bad situation.

[Seether]

True, but the poll isn't to ask if the good Templar units should be replace by new crap-tastic units.

[Gogolometro]

Jerusalim have some religious order units. Not only templars. They got a lot of nice buffer to egiptians war machines like siryan auxilia and marinai. Thats ugly.
They got french archers and templars. 1 was enough. Squieres are perfect sense and some spears. They can be called the jerusalim spearmeans with no problem. Even zweihanders can be all the cannons of holy sepulcre, like byzantines.

[Dagda]

Jerusalim have some religious order units. Not only templars. They got a lot of nice buffer to egiptians war machines like siryan auxilia and marinai. Thats ugly.
They got french archers and templars. 1 was enough. Squieres are perfect sense and some spears. They can be called the jerusalim spearmeans with no problem. Even zweihanders can be all the cannons of holy sepulcre, like byzantines.

So you basically want to nerf them even more and add even less variety.

Sounds counter-productive.

[uos_spo6]

Probably keep a heavy mounted knight, spearmen and crossbowmen for Templars. One hand Swordsmen if need be. The others discard. Perhaps give Templars more presence in beginning Generals to maintain some templar feel and identity? Perhaps recruitable General Templar unit if feasible to replace reg templar heavy mounted knights?

In this way at least with this unit array you could field an effective Crusader State army of only Templars if you wanted to do such a thing

[Gogolometro]

Dont forget was templars and hospitaliers who mean the jerusalimite armies. In fact, in my opinion, a nerfed rooster, but with new stacks coming every 10 tuens sounds more realistic.
Imagine how nice will be a new reinforcement to come at turn 1101, than again, and again. Most of them must be french roosters. Will be cool to see some english and germans too. Dunno how can be done, but will make jerusalim a more interesting campaing, and no more dead KoJ dead in turn 30 like AI.

[Heskey]

CS needs a boost, not a nerf in my opinion...

[hippacrocafish]

I vote to axe all of them except Templar Guards, I would miss that cool gold armor too much.

[Sanderlicious]

I assume that the crusader states would get some compensation for no longer having templars. Correct?
What, currently, if anything, seems to be the plan to replace the Templar units?

[Seether]

As the OP says, if Templar units are cut down, then more historical units represented by people such as European crusaders, nobility, and Poulain, can be brought in as Heavy Knights and Heavy Infantry. There's more to it than just taking out templar units and replacing them, but that's the gist of it. It's just that the popularity of Templar units are the main discussion right now.

[Heskey]

Well, I love the Templars... But I play SS for its realism. If the proposed changes are good ill say goodbye Templars.

[meese]

Templar Longbowmen - French archers are enough
Templar Crossbowmen - Couldn't these just be replaced with other crossbowmen?
Templar Squires - I don't mind these
Templar Zweihanders - there are already the canons, and you could probably use the HRE zweihander
Templar Sergeants - Get rid of them
Templar Heavy Spearmen - Keep
Templar Guard- Keep just because they're cool. Else replace them with something equally cool. Or just make the st lazarus ones a little better

[hippacrocafish]

My suggestions:

Templar Longbowmen -IMO the Crusaders shouldn't have such a powerful archer unit, their strength is supposed to be in knights, Heavy infantry, and spears, not archers. You could take French archers out of their roster as well and, maybe, replace them with the Maronites of Lebanon (If that's a historically accurate unit) or something similar.

Templar Crossbowmen - Maybe an Italian Crossbowmen 'Mercenary' unit (Not hired like mercenaries, but they are described as mercs). I remember reading something about how Genoese crossbowmen acted as support troops for the Crusaders besieging Acre (Or Antioch, can't remember ATM). I'm pretty certain Broken Crescent has such a unit.

Templar Squires - Maybe 'Latin Squires' instead?

Templar Zweihanders - I would replace them with a totally different unit.

Templar Sergeants - Just rename them 'Crusader Sergeants'.

Templar Heavy Spearmen - Similar unit, only something more unique.

Templar Guard- Keep just because they're cool. Else replace them with something equally cool. Or just make the st lazarus ones a little better.

Agreed

[Gogolometro]

Heh. What about getting the italians from byzantine rooster? I still think reinforcement are nice for KoJ.

[preachercheeze]

Realism please... I always hated the "free state of the Templars" in 6.1 due to the fact that the templars never had any "own" land (well, you now what I mean)... IMHO the only Templars needed are the ones that spawns from the chapter houses as for all other factions... although at the start of the campaign, Acre and Gaza might have one each....

Instead of the units that is there now I would suggest:

Templar Longbowmen - Muslim archers / local archers
Templar Crossbowmen - Genose Crossbowmen
Templar Squires - either ordinary squires OR Frankish Knights
Templar Zweihanders - ordinary Zweihanders OR other noble knights (Polish, German, English)
Templar Sergeants - Keep BUT as a chapter house unit
Templar Heavy Spearmen - eqivalent unit from either existing roster OR a unique crusader state heavy spearmen unit (maybe Hospitaller heavy spearmen)
Templar Guard - Why not Guard of the Temple or something similar?

with this roster you can easily get three or four new unit slots for, as an example, Georgia

Heh. What about getting the italians from byzantine rooster? I still think reinforcement are nice for KoJ.

There was a mod that was banned from here that had implemented that feature... once in a while there would be an army of crusaders that came onto your control from the sea...

(they banned it because it broke against the modding rules and should not be talked about, although I felt that this piece of info shows that it is entirely possible to make such a script)

[Constantine The Great]

Am I the only person that really hates the Templar Guard for being gold? Besides the amount of Templar Units really annoys me.
It it possible for the CS to have both Chapterhouses anyway?

I really want to see Norman Knights make an appearance. Knights, Knights, Knights is what the States need.