Some possibly underpowered/overpowered factions OR rant

[Bonapartist]

I just wanted to share some thoughts after wasting, oh, 130 hours of my life on Europa Barbarorum. I love this mod to death and it does everything to stomp all over RTW vanilla, and every other mod I've tried yet. But I still have the feelings like it could be balanced alot better.

Possibly overpowered factions:
Casse has an incredible position all around. The British isles are a virtual fortress due to the AI's unwillingness to launch naval invasions, and so they have great security. Once English, Scotland and Ireland are secured, I found myself swimming on money, although this was largely due to extensive trade agreements with all factions I wasn't warring with. The Imanae (sp?) unit seems way overpowered for their given cost, with approx 15 attack and 15 defense, a decent pack of javelings with low upkeep and low recruitment cost. This single unit makes your chances of success skyrocket. I can't think of a single other unit which delivers such a high value-for-money, not even the Principe - the only reason you wouldn't just infest the world with cheap imanae levies is because you know its cheap. My Casse game has been my easiest by a wide margin, and it was also my wealthiest.

Getae. Is it me, or are these guys, along with the Casse, the obviously stronger, more robust barbarian faction? The Falxman is a 9.5 out of 10 star unit. Low upkeep, low recruitment, 80 man units with 16~ attack and anti-armor bonuses make for what is virtually the most cost effective shock troops in game. Generally, only extremely elite cavalry will prevail in a straight fight with them, even the heaviest enemy infantry seem to fold. Their lack of shields and armor makes them extremely susceptible to missile attacks, but as I tend to build missile-heavy armies myself, I tend to define how the battle happens and lead with less valuable slingers and archers who draw the initial enemy vollies, so in the end their vulnerability wasn't really a problem but only a minor drawback. Their levy spearmen seem far more well disciplined than their "good morale) would seem to indicate, as they seem to me head and shoulders better disciplined than the Celtic or Germanic spear levies, more than their slightly higher upkeep would make up for. The lands directly the Getae east give access to the Mercenary Nomad General, my personal favorite general and a ridiculous bargain at ~2000 with ~500 upkeep, as well as the 270~ upkeep Scythian horse archers. The combination of cost effective, murderous anti-armor infantry and access to incredibly cheap horse archers made the Getae game a (very fun) cakewalk to me. Phalanxes totally pissed me off in EB until I played the Getae and set the Falxes on them - the falxes are too good, it kind of feels like sometimes.

The German, Aedui and Arverni armies all seem underpowered to me. Compared to the Romans to the south, the Casse to the north and the Getae to the east, their unit roster seems laughable. Any units which are approaching the quality of the other 3 factions are hugely higher in their upkeep.

Cavalry upkeeps seem to be all over the board in general, sometimes. I understand that Romans are supposed to have cheap shock infantry because that was their historical speciality, and in the same way the Steppe peoples should have less expensive horse archers because that was their preferred mode of warfare, but sometimes it just seems overboard. There are tons of very light cavalry with 500 a turn upkeep, nothing more than virtually unarmored skirmishers, and that seems like overkill, to the point where I never build them, or build them and immediately disband them after battle or get them killed. Sometimes I feel like upkeeps in general need to be tweaked so that historical implications are less important and raw unit power should be the determining factor for price. Alot of times certain units just WON'T be in my army, because their cost-to-value ratio is so much worse than another unit that there is no possible reason, no niche, to go with the other. A good example would be the Baktrian Light Infantry versus the Persian Archer Spearmen (persians are much, much better on a dollar basis), or the Getae phalanx versus the falxmen.

And hey, how about those Persian spearmen-archers? Is that not a levy unit to steal your heart? I'm playing a Baktria game right now and am in the process of devouring the Saka after taking over all the rebel provinces nearby. I've found the spearman-archers the be hugely useful units, with their ~155 upkeep making them ideal garrison troops while their dual purpose on the battlefield makes them THE most flexible levy troop unit in the game, imo. Love these guys - their morale isn't even as bad as you might expect.

In playing with Baktria, I had access to the Indian longbowmen, in whose description it mentions having greater range than other bows and outranging horse cavalry making them essentially invulnerable. In playing today I found that range is exactly the same as the persian spearmen/archers, and that horse archers have longer range than either!

Rant over. Love this mod to death.

[Magic Man]

I dunno, in general i find this game fairly balanced and fun to play.


But then im not someone who pays huge attention to cost/effectiveness ratio. I play with units i like, and play with army compositions that have at least a base in history.

No Triarii stacks for me, etc.

[Rolling Thunder]

Getai: Drapeni will be shredded by bowmen. This isn't a balance issue, it's you not having problem. Javelinmen will also turn them into mincemeat, and a head-on charge into any kind of unit armed with Javelins/pila will see your Drapeni lose so many men it won't even be funny. They'll also suffer heavy casualties in pitched battles with light infantry (ironically, I've found levies to be the best way to tie them up).


Put bluntly, whichever faction you play as seems OP, because you will always win (then again, I recently lost a massive pitched battle against the Seleucid Empire) and the AI does not use it's units to the best advantage.

[bce]

The Indian longbowmen seem pretty useless to me as well. They run out of arrows quickly and have the same range as archer-spearmen.


I never bothered to invade India in my Bactria game because each city has 2 units of war elephants plus the generals bodyguard which is also mounted on elephants... You don't need India to get elephants anyway; you can build them in Bactra (and I think Kophen) without ever touching India.

[Unintended BM]

The Indian longbowmen have crazy huge swords which tear through everything. They're good archers and good swordsmen.

[Bonapartist]

Indian longbowmen, given cost to effectiveness, are worthless. I'd rather have the equivalent 2 archer-spearmen in 95% of situations.
The towns in India are WELL worth the cost of invasion because they have fantastically profitable mines which can be easily overlooked in valuing them. My Baktria game has centered around taking Saka lands and all available rebel lands, and mines are over 60% income a turn.

Starve them out, and when the weakened army tries to sally, use the massed slingers you brought along to neutralize their elephants, which are the the only real threat to be had.

As for the Falxmen (drapanei), I virtually never felt the pain of their vulnerability to missile attack - the one place I could see it as a real problem would be in attacking cities with advanced walls and all of their AI defenders. In a typical battle, simply telling the falxmen to charge full speed into javelin-equipped heavy infantry meant they were clashing before the javelins were leashed.

[ERE_Friend]

what I have a problem with when it comes to balancing in total war games in general isn't the units but that fact that the AI just seems to utilize some factions better which go on to dominate, while most of the others don't really expand much. It makes thing uninteresting sometimes. Like how in my Romani game, the Casse still only have one territory about 60 turns into the game, and the Arche-Seluk-whatever they're called are stunting the growth of everbody. And even the powerful factions always seem to have all their armies in one place, which is how I killed the carthaginians mad easy by attacking their capital when all the stacks where elsewhere.

[Brapbrapbap]

what I have a problem with when it comes to balancing in total war games in general isn't the units but that fact that the AI just seems to utilize some factions better which go on to dominate, while most of the others don't really expand much. It makes thing uninteresting sometimes. Like how in my Romani game, the Casse still only have one territory about 60 turns into the game, and the Arche-Seluk-whatever they're called are stunting the growth of everbody. And even the powerful factions always seem to have all their armies in one place, which is how I killed the carthaginians mad easy by attacking their capital when all the stacks where elsewhere.

The Seleucids don't stunt anyone's growth. Everyone just devours them.

[Spike]

speaking of Aedui and Arvernii's behalf, you should try made an army that didn't cover their penis and watch those puny Romans fled when they simply tough your line... (line full of uirodusios and guarded by Gaesatae), those two units are the most powerful, even in the hands of AI

[Brapbrapbap]

speaking of Aedui and Arvernii's behalf, you should try made an army that didn't cover their penis and watch those puny Romans fled when they simply tough your line... (line full of uirodusios and guarded by Gaesatae), those two units are the most powerful, even in the hands of AI

Someone told the Aedui this, since their last three armies i faced where based entirely on naked overpowered dudes.

[Rolling Thunder]

The Seleucids don't stunt anyone's growth. Everyone just devours them.

Sometimes, in Hellenistic Antiquity, Seleucia devours you!

[Entropy Judge]

The Imanae (sp?) unit seems way overpowered for their given cost, with approx 15 attack and 15 defense, a decent pack of javelings with low upkeep and low recruitment cost. This single unit makes your chances of success skyrocket. I can't think of a single other unit which delivers such a high value-for-money, not even the Principe

The Imannae Militia Skirmishers aren't that great, actually. True, they have 13 Attack and 13 Defense, but they have a Light Spear and 10 of that Defense is in Skill. So they're penalized in infantry combat and die like flies to missile fire. As for the remark about Principes ... Camillan Principes have much higher Defense, particularly with their Armor, and better Morale and Discipline as well. Polybian Principes are even better - even more Armor, and while they have a lower Attack, they use a Sword. Polybian Principes aren't even twice as expensive as Imannae, and are significantly sturdier.

The Falxman is a 9.5 out of 10 star unit. Low upkeep, low recruitment, 80 man units with 16~ attack and anti-armor bonuses make for what is virtually the most cost effective shock troops in game. Generally, only extremely elite cavalry will prevail in a straight fight with them, even the heaviest enemy infantry seem to fold. Their lack of shields and armor makes them extremely susceptible to missile attacks, but as I tend to build missile-heavy armies myself, I tend to define how the battle happens and lead with less valuable slingers and archers who draw the initial enemy vollies, so in the end their vulnerability wasn't really a problem but only a minor drawback.

Attack of 16? Granted I don't have EB installed at the moment, but this lists their attack as only 9:
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...it&unit=dacian infantry drapanai&text=falx&ownership=any&class=any&category=infantry
Even the Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi only have an Attack of 11! I agree on the whole with your basic statement, saying only that your success with them is in part to your focus on missile units - the AI *doesn't* as a rule, and if it did Drapanai would be crushed in a field engagement.

Their levy spearmen seem far more well disciplined than their "good morale) would seem to indicate, as they seem to me head and shoulders better disciplined than the Celtic or Germanic spear levies, more than their slightly higher upkeep would make up for.

Don't know off-hand what the Getai use for Levies, but the Celtic and Germanic Levies are really not that great. They're only really useful for swarming things under and population control, and I've never used them past the point where I can recruit serious (generally sword-armed) units.

The German, Aedui and Arverni armies all seem underpowered to me. Compared to the Romans to the south, the Casse to the north and the Getae to the east, their unit roster seems laughable. Any units which are approaching the quality of the other 3 factions are hugely higher in their upkeep.

Um ... I'd have to seriously disagree with you here (except the Arverni, they suck). Starting with the Sweboz:
The Alpine Phalanx is a powerful unit that can easily hold its own against Roman units, particularly with an AP Axe as a secondary.
The Druxtiz Bastarniska is like the Dacian Drapanai, only moreso. It costs slightly more than Principes units but will rip them apart.
The basic German Spear unit (Dugundiz) costs about the same as a Principes, has a better attack (including a *7* Missile!), but - like almost every Barbarian unit - little armor. The Chatti variant (Dugundiz Xathjiskā ) has slightly better Morale and Discipline and an 8 missile attack, while the Chauci variant (Druxtiz Xobugiskā ) has a better Shield and more Mass, which aids them in Charges or the resisting thereof.
The Cherusci Swordsmen, a fairly efficient (but expensive) unit has a better Missile Attack than Hastati (8 vs 4), a better Charge (8 vs 4), and *MUCH* better Lethality - a whopping .225 vs the Camillan Hastati's .1! They also possess a high Morale, and are well-protected in melee (13 Defense Skill).
Jugundiz, the Sweboz Skirmisher unit, is virtually identical to the Imannae - it costs a bit more, takes up less space, and has a higher bonus vs Chariots.
The Chatti Club Infantry is a cheap, basic unit with an AP attack and decent lethality (.14). The normal Germanic Club Infantry has a slightly higher Attack, but is more expensive.
The Helvetii Phalanx are an elite unit, and expensive, but absolutely brutal to fight.
The Speutogordoz is similar, but lacks the Sword attack, has less Defense (less Armor and Shield), but has slightly higher Lethality for the spear. It's also a fair bit cheaper.

So that this post doesn't get much longer than it has to, I'll just list the relevant Celtic units: Bagaudas, Batacorii (also available to the Sweboz), Bataroas, Cingetos (Aedui only - expensive, but a powerful *FORCE* multiplier due to boosting friendly Morale), Dunaminica, Iaosatae, Kludacorii, Celto-Hellenic Infantry.

Finally (because I purposely used only Infantry in the above), Leuce Epos, the Celtic Light Cavalry, is broken. Less than 2000 mnai to recruit, roughly 500/turn upkeep, and capable of shattering whole armies (I've used three - granted with 4, 4, and 2 XP) to take on half a stack of Roman units, including a General, and won. The Reidonez is rather more expensive, and has generally higher stats, but fewer Javelins. The Myrcharn are cheaper but don't stack up. The Caledonian Nobles are junk in comparison. I've not used the Cruvamendica often enough to swear by them, but looking at the stats the Leuce Epos is still a winner (also, their melee spear is AP!).

Not to mention that the Celts (all three groups), the Sweboz, and the Getai are frequently able to train the same units in the same area, save maybe the Casse in Eastern Europe. So while the Celts don't have access to all the Germanic units, they can train Dugundiz and the Chatti version, while Germans can train some Celtic units.

Rant over. Love this mod to death.

Here, here.

[bobbin]

I just wanted to share some thoughts after wasting, oh, 130 hours of my life on Europa Barbarorum. I love this mod to death and it does everything to stomp all over RTW vanilla, and every other mod I've tried yet. But I still have the feelings like it could be balanced alot better.........

The factions in EB are unbalanced because in reality things are never balanced, it always should be harder to succeed as the Sweboz or Saba than as the Romani.

Regarding cavalry cost, historically cavalry was an expensive thing to have, so they were given high upkeep to reflect this and also as a method to prevent the player from recruiting unrealistic amounts in their armies.

As EBII is based on M2TW we can now directly control how many and how often the player can recruit units so upkeep will probably be lower, although cavalry will always be more expensive.

[Tellos Athenaios]

If you only look at the stats as they're displayed on the screen, you will not see the whole picture.

Spearmen get a +4 attack bonus to compensate for the fact that they are penalised by the engine itself against infantry (this +4 bonus fixes them against swordsmen, and cancels out against other spearmen who also got the +4 bonus). Similarly, the Celtic/Germanic units may look like not worth the money or seriously overpowered but this depends heavily on the situation: against missile heavy armies such as those seen in the East they're laughably vulnerable, but pitched against heavy armoured units of the Italians or Greeks they prove surprisingly capable -- especially for the cost. Then again, the Italians and Greeks stand a proper chance against the nomads using aggressive tactics (can't sit back and wait to be shred, but can take the initiative and drive the nomads off the map) ...

When it comes to cavalry things are not what it seems either. Some of the elite cavalry units may look to have a ridiculously low attack score, until you realise that they have a potent side arm and AP weapons. Which is why Hetairoi are completely worth the money if you can get them.

[athanaric]

Hetairoi are the nastiest buggers in the game...

[Rolling Thunder]

Hetairoi are the nastiest buggers in the game...

Well, yeah. They're basically middle-ages knights wandering around in a period where everyone else only has swords and spears. Personally I have no idea how the hell anyone ever stood up against the Hellenic factions in pitched battles.

[Boriak]

Why don't you just make adjustments yourself? For example, it's easy to give Indian Longbowmen greater range and ammo.