The Better Country (England V Scotland)

[Libertine]

This was inspired from a debate i had with KScott on MSN, rather Lenghty...so here is a nice verbatum copy of it, with nice differnt colours for each participant!

Red is KScott, Green is me

Kscott says:
and reached the conclusion that Scottish is so much better than English
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
um
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
no
Kscott says:
We cant fight facts
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
no they really are not
Kscott says:
yep
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
who was it that proposed the union of nations?
Kscott says:
Scotland
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
because they couldnt cope with english dominance
Kscott says:
no
Kscott says:
Because...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
they needed trade and they were in a very bad way
Kscott says:
1) almost all the Nobles were English
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
no
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
all nobles were scottish
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and wanted to be english
Kscott says:
2) Scotland doesnt exactly have the richest resources, and after a bad civil war, Scotland was ****ed
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
a bvad civil war won by whom?
Kscott says:
The Scottish King I believe....
Kscott says:
Altough im not the expert
Kscott says:
but there was a civil war, and I know my clan remained loyal to the King..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
when?
Kscott says:
Well I can go get my book, one sec
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
the only scottish wars i know about are from about 1230 to present
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
1290 sorry
Kscott says:
?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
1291
Kscott says:
It was in like 1600 something..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
ok, well in 1291 Edward Longshanks kicked scottish arse...
Kscott says:
:wub:...
Kscott says:
Scotland won the war of Indepence..
Kscott says:
I know Braveheart his way unhistorical..
Kscott says:
but William Wallace kicked your asses
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
"Edward made a triumphant, four-month progress through Scotland, pillaging or destroying the symbols of Scottish nationhood as he went!
Kscott says:
yeah...
Kscott says:
Then later
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
do you know his nick name?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
"Hammer of the Scots"
Kscott says:
william wallace kicked his ass
Kscott says:
Ever heard of Sterling Bridge...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yes
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
first English defeat in about 200 years
Kscott says:
rapping..
Kscott says:
And the Scottish only had peasants...
Kscott says:
more or less..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
ever heard of Falkirk?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
after Falkirk in 1298 the English went on the offenasive and captured william wallace in 1305
Kscott says:
yeah...
Kscott says:
He was up against impossible odds
Kscott says:
England is richer
Kscott says:
and much more populous
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and a much better military power
Kscott says:
not man per man....
Kscott says:
The Scottish fought better, they just didnt have the resources
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
how can you seriously say that?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
Scotish tactics consisted of running down a hill
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and they hadnt changed by 1745
Kscott says:
how can I not say it..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
weras England had created the most effective fighting force on the planet
Kscott says:
They were a bunxh of peasants
Kscott says:
who could only fight with their bravery
Kscott says:
something they used to make up for what their lands didnt give them..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yup, thats a great defence when you get shot
Kscott says:
so?
Kscott says:
Is it Scotlands fault that Scotlands lands suck
Kscott says:
Ever heard hard lands make hard people?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
so england is superior in terms of military, sports, organisation
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
etc etc
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
England is a militaristic country, and has been since Henry I
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and befor
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
e
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
since the dawn of Briton as a whole
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
(thats British, not Great Britain)
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and lets look at this diferantly
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
whos better? America of North Korea?
Kscott says:
America
Kscott says:
The marines fight with a valour unseen...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
why did the Viet Cong manage to survive and defeat the americans in the 60's then
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
its exactly the same with England and Scotland
Kscott says:
no..
Kscott says:
We lost beacuse we were fighting in dense jungle
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
England lost a couple of battles against the scots, but it is still the superior nation....
Kscott says:
Superior because of resources....
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
England was fighting in unknowen highland conditions, the training areas in England were very differant to Scotland
Kscott says:
An intresting fact.....
Kscott says:
In the colonial days of america
Kscott says:
The Seminole indians adopted the Kilt, because they saw the Scottish as the bravest fighters they had ever seen
Kscott says:
This big burely, Scottish men came to Georgia and the Carolinias, and the Indians were impressed...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
good for the Indians. the rest of the world adopted the Rifle as their standard weapon after the success of the 95th in Iberia
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
which was predominatly English and Irish
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
designed by an English man (Ezekial Baker(
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
* (Ezekial Baker)
Kscott says:
"Irish"
Kscott says:
bah, im irish too
Kscott says:
they are good, but not to the scots..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
predominatly English *and* Irish

"I Drink therefore i am" says:
not just Irish
Kscott says:
Just get over it, Scotland probably preduced some of the greatest individual fighters in the world
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
the reason England had better resources than scotland was because the scots couldnt take them first anyway!
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yeah...the scots are the best *individual* fighters, that i will afree to
Kscott says:
Take them first?
Kscott says:
How the **** could they take it?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
however the English were without a shadow of a doubt the best organised army in existance
Kscott says:
The Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms were well established
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yeah....why didnt they march over there before them?
Kscott says:
when the little Irish tribe of Scots came from North Ireland and settled Dal-Raida
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
the Celto-Pictish as a cohesive whole could have taken britain
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
but did they?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
Celto-Pictish meaning Celts and Picts (Scoti, Picts, Eireians, Ulster and others)
Kscott says:
they werent cohesive
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
exactly
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
thats my point
Kscott says:
and for the same reason the English and French werent....
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
however the English were without a shadow of a doubt the best organised army in existance

"I Drink therefore i am" says:
Organised being the operative word
Kscott says:
Btw, "england" was run by the French the whole time anyways....
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
wsame with Angles, Saxons and Jutes
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
really
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
when was England run by the French?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
Normandy? they were from Scandanavia
Kscott says:
William the Conquerer was "norman", which by every means was french..
Kscott says:
No thats not really true...
Kscott says:
I have a book on the Normans...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
William was the Bastard son of a Scandanvian
Kscott says:
okay
Kscott says:
Normans were almost entirely french...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
his grave at Caen is marked William the Bastard

and no they wernt, they setteld in French lands after an exodus from Scandanvia, does the fact that British people live in Honk Kong make them Chinese?
Kscott says:
No...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
* Hong Kong
Kscott says:
I have the book
Kscott says:
People in north normandy had scandinavian blood
Kscott says:
from scandinavian mixing
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
2
Kscott says:
like what happend all around the area
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
* "Normandy was created from territory around the lower reaches of the River Seine, which had been seized from the Frankish kingdom by Danish Vikings under Rollo in 911"
Kscott says:
but they were by all means french
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and they conqerd Britain in 1066
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
not along time to become totaly french
Kscott says:
The people were French
Kscott says:
and normandy was a french vassal
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yeah, some people from the army were French, but we were never ruled by France
Kscott says:
You were ruled by French..
Kscott says:
The King's spoke French
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
we were ruled by the Normans, they are differant
Kscott says:
Richard the Lionheart didnt know english
Kscott says:
He only spoke French....
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
Scandanvian Vikings on the one hand, Frank's on the other
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
so? he was brought up to speak french, 90% of europe was....doesnt make him a frog does it? the first Hanover kings only spoke German, doesnt make Britain german does it? America speaks English..does it make them English?
Kscott says:
America does have LARGE English influences
Kscott says:
We are the sons of England
Kscott says:
there is no doubt..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yes...but is it part of the Commonwealth?? no. Is it English?? no. Most americans consider themselves to be Scots-Irish
Kscott says:
only 30 million americans are Irish
Kscott says:
most of them in very small numbers...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
the other ones dont call themselves English though do they?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
they think of themselves as American
Kscott says:
no
Kscott says:
Almost every american knows their heritage
Kscott says:
at least in some mumbers
Kscott says:
we realize we all came from somwhere else..
Kscott says:
And when someone asks what you are you say..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yes but they still define themselves as American
Kscott says:
20% English etc...
Kscott says:
Well we are american citizens yes
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
exactky
Kscott says:
but blood wise no..
Kscott says:
We have a short history
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
were we French Citizens? and when the hell were the English blood related to the French???
Kscott says:
we connect with the lands of our Ancestors
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
damn right you have a short history, my house is older than your constitution
Kscott says:
but that doesnt matte
Kscott says:
Our country is much older than France
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
no the constitution and house was just a bit of age humour
Kscott says:
they just decided to keep the same name through each new counrty name
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
ok....you do realise the scots were hugley influenced by the French...
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
e.g Robert the Bruces real name being Robert de Bruce
Kscott says:
Yeah
Kscott says:
I dont take same that the scots took stuff from others
Kscott says:
Its just you do seem too....
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
Gaelic is also highly french influenced....England had a king who may have been French...we then spent the next 1000 years beating them in every war
Kscott says:
But King James was Scottish..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
yeah
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
and do you know what happened to his family?
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
well for a start there was the English Civil War, which created Englands New Model Army. then there is the fact that no descendant of James VI is allowed to rule england...ever again, by order of Parliament
Kscott says:
bah
Kscott says:
They just couldnt handle him..
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
no, he just couldnt handle control, order and organisation
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
James VI was also one of the most unpopular Englosh Kings
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
His tongue didnt fit his mouth, he never washed his hands because he was mortaly afraid of water, when he took his glovges off his hands were quite literally black. he had to wear a huge dagger proof top that made him over balance because he was afraid of being knived in the streets, and alos Guido Falkes tried to blow the ****er up
Kscott says:
your so nationistic
"I Drink therefore i am" says:
no, im a *very* patriotic english man

Now, some people will say this is all bull faeces.....but whats your take on this??#

Oh, and this was all a frenidly debate, just banter on a sunday evening

EDIT: This is just firendly banter, this is *not* a serious national debate or Flame Fest OK!!

[Ulyaoth]

Scotland. FREE SCOTLAND!

[Kscott]

Scotland. FREE SCOTLAND!

Good man, please vote though...


I voted, but wont tell how

[Pra]

England. No questions about it.

[Libertine]

good call Prarara

[ShangTang]

I'd say the country which conquered the other.

[Kscott]

I'd say the country which conquered the other.

which is? England only ruled Scotland for a very sort time..

The Scottish just proposed that the peoples form a union, and then we get...

Great Britian !

[Libertine]

The Scottish parliament voted itself out of existance, its people were desperate, they had just been rodgerd by England, the only reason Scotland propoes the union was because England was hammering scotland.

[Atheist Peace]

Scotland pwns, though I like britain as well.

[Kscott]

The Scottish parliament voted itself out of existance, its people were desperate, they had just been rodgerd by England, the only reason Scotland propoes the union was because England was hammering scotland.

bah, I told you the real reasons in the thread.

1)weakness after civil war
2)poverty

the first increased the second.

[ShangTang]

"why did the Viet Cong manage to survive and defeat the americans in the 60's then"

This never happened. America pulled out simply for political reasons. Militarily, the Americans had kill ratios of 20 to 1 and were winning the ground war.

[chchcharmin]

"why did the Viet Cong manage to survive and defeat the americans in the 60's then"

This never happened. America pulled out simply for political reasons. Militarily, the Americans had kill ratios of 20 to 1 and were winning the ground war.

and thats why the viets had won. you dont defeat democratic nations only by killing their soldiers .

btw, go go scotland.

[Justinian]

I dunno. Which country had the largest Empire known to man? Uh... Sco'land!

Actually I voted Scotland.

[Libertine]

How many people here are voting because they believe Scotland to be the oppressed Underdog?

[Justinian]

I'm voting for Scotland because Scotland is damn cool ... no other reason.

[Francisco Montana]

"why did the Viet Cong manage to survive and defeat the americans in the 60's then"

This never happened. America pulled out simply for political reasons. Militarily, the Americans had kill ratios of 20 to 1 and were winning the ground war.

Well, I didn't want to spin the topic off subject, but ShangTang is 100% correct. We lost the war at home, not in the battlefield.

BTW, since I'm 1/4 Scot (1/4 Irish, 1/4 Swedish, 1/4 German fyi) my heart is with Scotland.

Man for man, they were the braver warrior. But I suggest they also had homefield advantage. To be sure, they never ventured far at all into English lands.

Therefore, I must betray my ancestors and vote, England. (The entire Gunn clan just rolled over in it's grave! )

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

Man for man, they were the braver warrior. But I suggest they also had homefield advantage. To be sure, they never ventured far at all into English lands.

The Scottish Clans were far superior warriors, the highland charge was totally unstoppable but they were let down by totally idiotic leaders.

For example, at Culloden. The one weapon the highlanders had was their charge, everyone feared it to the extent that the English troops (and supporting Scots) developed new drills to try and defeat it. However, Prince Charlie and his generals lined up the Highlanders on a boggy moor with huge gullys (really bad land for running across) and then sttod them there for 2 hours while the English cannon shot at them.

Eventually one of the clans charged and still almost broke the Government lines, on decent ground with good generals they would have won (as a Scot though I'd still say it was a good thing they didn't in the long rune, the Stuarts were w*ankers).

And they did get most of the way to London, trouble was most of the army thought it was a smash and grab raid and went home when their arms were full of loot

Therefore, I must betray my ancestors and vote, England. (The entire Gunn clan just rolled over in it's grave! )

treachorous scum! I sentence you to be force-fed deep fried marsbars and other imaginary scottish culinary items until you explode.

Scotland Forever(bagpipes rule)

Not anymore, it seems....

Quote:
A schoolboy from Paisley has been told to stop practising his bagpipes outside his home after he was found breaking anti-social behaviour law noise limits.

Now before anyone whinges about English laws, Scotland has its own legal system. The law might have been passed in Parlianment. Scots have disproportionately more MP's than they should (and they still complain... sheesh!)

In Paisley :sweatingb he was lucky he wasn't knifed

[Farnan]

I'd have to say the Scots, just because the English kicked my ancestors out of England and sent them to North Carolina. Also, the Scots could have one the war if only they were not too moral to use their secret weapon: People who don't know how to play bagpipes playing bagpipes. It sounds awful.

[Libertine]

Bagpipes are great, i love them.
oh, and anyone here like Haggis??

[Kscott]

Love Bagpipes, never had haggis..