A good man

[MoROmeTe]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/...tha/index.html

Espcially the bit about giving a Purple Heart to the comatose soldier hit by friendly fire really got to me...

And he is the first Senator with personality and the past to back him up that speaks out against the remaining in Iraq, interestingly not against the war itself...

[Ummon]

Yeah, the guy is a real man, in my book.

[Ummon]

Yeah, the guy is a real man, in my book.

Notice that I too do not believe in immediate withdrawal, but I appreciate him.

[imb39]

Whilst I obviously have a lot of sympathy for Murtha's viewpoint, I do believe that the Coalition forces can only leave when the Iraqis can police themselves. I'm not sure that they can. We dismantled the apparatus in place and we have to support the country whilst they rebuild. I think that is morally the right thing to do and also legally the right thing to do. If we just scarper, I suspect we might be breaking international agreements

[Tiwaz]

Whilst I obviously have a lot of sympathy for Murtha's viewpoint, I do believe that the Coalition forces can only leave when the Iraqis can police themselves. I'm not sure that they can. We dismantled the apparatus in place and we have to support the country whilst they rebuild. I think that is morally the right thing to do and also legally the right thing to do. If we just scarper, I suspect we might be breaking international agreements

Generally I might agree but there is one problem... I could agree with this rebuilding effort but Coalition is not keeping it's dirty fingers OUT of rebuilding. Coalition is pulling strings, making decisions and generally meddling with what should be iraqi internal affair.
That does not work as long term solution. Generally despite of rebuilding effort it is done in vain since it is most likely that the very minute Coalition decides it can leave Iraq will go up in civil war flames and result in new Iraq which is far different from what Coalition wanted it to be.

[Tom Paine]

We've gotta rebuild, then we can leave with justification; otherwise we're pulling out in disarray.

[Tiwaz]

Nope. Coalition has to keep Iraq together to give global economy time to reduce dependancy on ME oil or the great stockmarket crash of early 20th century will look like child's play when the true effects of this charade hit.

[Tom Paine]

Nope. Coalition has to keep Iraq together to give global economy time to reduce dependancy on ME oil or the great stock market crash of early 20th century will look like child's play when the true effects of this charade hit.

Hah, yeah, possibly; but we also need to keep it together for their benefit, not just ours. We leave a country in disarray, a dictator will rise, and this time they might be chummy with al-Q...

[Tiwaz]

Hah, yeah, possibly; but we also need to keep it together for their benefit, not just ours. We leave a country in disarray, a dictator will rise, and this time they might be chummy with al-Q...

Well, trying to run a nation and determine what is best for it's natives tends to cause dictatorships or in general rather unfriendly goverments. Just look at Iran as an example. Shah was a "good" ruler in opinion of the west. And got himself whacked very shortly by population.

Nation in disarray might also give rise to a determined and visioned leader who improves the nation greatly. "Handpicked" leaders do not generally, or ever, fulfill criteria of good leader since when powers choose the leader they prefer docility over strong other, nationally desirable, qualities. In fact often the leader which gains power after disposing the "friendly" goverment is in great contrast with disposed leader and thus we can anticipate that by installing "friendly" goverment Coalition only serves to make it more likely that Iraq, or what is left of it, will end up with goverment which does not see Al Quaida as a bad thing.

That is why this attempt of trying to keep Iraq together is going to fail. The goverment lacks respect and trust of the people because goverment, and it's instances, are there only due to quiet approval of occupational forces. They will not last and this whole thing will end up in bloodshed between three ethnic groups which can spread beyond borders of Iraq. To try anything beyond that is rather futile but I would guess it does have certain propaganda value domestically.

[Lord Agelmar]

Its nice to see there are still some leaders in the Democratic party.

[Tom Paine]

And yet currently we are heading to an Iran-style theocracy if we leace, with someone like Zarqawi in charge.

[Tiwaz]

Current direction is hardly towards theocracy. The "goverment" is just trying to disarm the religious leadership by throwing in crumbs. And failing.

[Tom Paine]

I mean if we leave, before they can take over, theocracy is assured as a result. They can't defend against it yet.

[imb39]

We shouldn't leave until Iraq can maintain itself. If we do:

1) We have acted illegally
2) We have acted dishonourably
3) We have destroyed what little claim to the 'moral high ground' when dealing with other countries
4) We would have wasted:
a) Lives
b) Resources
c) Political capital

[Tom Paine]

1) Done anyway.
2) Done anyway, just compounds it.
3) See 1 and 2.
4) a) True.
b) True.
c) What political capital?

[Farnan]

Political Capital is what makes the world go round...

[leeho730]

Well, I suppose UN will be involved at some stage, to clean up the mess that coalition have caused...

Which means that I might have to be deployed to Iraq... darn.

[Seleukos]

Murtha described a father, stroking the hand of his comatose son who couldn't get a Purple Heart because he was wounded by friendly fire.

What the hell is wrong with that? He doesnt get a Purple Heart because of friendly fire?? He is in a damned coma for goodness sake. They have to treat him like that. Friendly fire deserves a Purple Heart any day.

I commend Murtha for giving up one of his to this poor soldier.

[Templedog]

the term "immediate withdrawal" is a freaking joke. How long have we been there??? there is no plan in Iraq but to walk up and down the street waiting to get sniped or blown up. get them the hell out of there already....immediate withdrawal would be no difference then a slow one.....stupid's

the Dem's just want to pull them back and have us fail in Iraq? lmao....crazy republicans...

[danzig]

Amusing thing about this though is that when the hawks support Iraq they are warmongers, have problems grasping reality etc etc but when the hawk goes the opposite direction he immediately deserves our respect and beyond critical comments because he was there, a soldier. So why is Murtha anymore credible then say McCain? McCain actually agrees on Murtha on all the mistakes done but it ends at what to do now. Murtha says there is nothing more to be done in Iraq, McCain says there is so all it comes down to is same old crap what your personal political belief going into it is. Same thing when generals speak, Wesley Clark was antiwar but Colin Powell wasnt but yet some how one has more credibility then the other in some peoples eyes...why since really which one is 'more credible' general depends on your view of the war. So bottom line is this, Murtha is a man who has put his life on the line, he deserves our respect for his military service but he is simply wrong and obviously imo.