What the @#$%?

[Farnan]

Some Iraqis, presumbly pro-insurgent are filing charges against retired General Tommy Franks.

Here are the charges:

•The failure to prevent the mass looting of hospitals in Baghdad after the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime.

•Eyewitness testimony of U.S. troops firing upon an ambulance.

•The indiscriminate shooting and wounding its driver by U.S. armored vehicles of civilians in Baghdad.

•The bombing of a marketplace in Baghdad that killed scores of civilians.

• The attack on a civilian bus with an "energy weapon" in the town of al-Hillah, killing at least 10 passengers.

© 1999-2003 News World Communications, Inc

1. Okay, I can't see how that is a warcrime.

2. Ok, so an eyewitness saw them shoot at an ambulance, ambulances were used by Iraqi guerillas as transportation and technicals, that ambulance was probably either a technical or guirellia transport.

3. can someone clarify that, If it said that the Armored vehicle killed the driver, see above.

4. Last time I heard when a weapon missed and hit the wrong target, no matter how tragic, was not a warcrime.

5. WTF? I think Drak may have influenced this one .

[Ó Cathasaigh]

No matter how silly this sounds, we'll soon be hearing from the America bashers soon enough, so they can remind us how damned evil we realy are.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

No matter how silly this sounds, we'll soon be hearing from the America bashers soon enough, so they can remind us how damned evil we realy are.

Humanity is evil and good simultaneously. "America" is no better or no worse.

[humvee2800]

Quite simplyThe war in iraq was a mistake from the beginning,Not well planned out enough and far far too political.

Mind you its happened,and the best thing too do now is for the coalition forces to do the damn best too turn iraq into a modern, happy industrious country.

I dont see why so many people think americans wanna kill civilians.Theres no point in doing so ,and standard humanity pushes against it.Also if a commander gives an order a soldier beleives is in violation of human rights(like firing artillery shells into a peaceful crowd) they can decline the order.

[abaris]

Humanity is evil and good simultaneously. "America" is no better or no worse.

That's exactly my opinion. I only have a problem with those folks, who advertise some kind of a promised land and constantly refuse to acknowledge, that they're living in a country with interests. And national interests are seldomly altruistic.

[Siblesz]

Funny how everyone gets worked up about defending or insulting America. I wouldn't be surprised if all of these claims proved to be right. It's war. It's expected. Instead of proudly wearing the "God Bless America" or "Bring Back the Troops" pins, maybe both groups should look at these claims in an objective stance instead of rushing to judgement like Captains Hicks and Farnan did here.

[Farnan]

Energy Weapon, its not Star Trek, no one has energy weapons. Also, don't be so quick to defend the accusations.

[Siblesz]

Energy Weapon, its not Star Trek, no one has energy weapons. Also, don't be so quick to defend the accusations.

If you could read carefully, I never defended the accusations, I merely said that I wouldn't be surprised if they proved to be right. Furthermore, I JUSTIFIED the actions of Tommy Franks, if they wound up to be true, by saying that things of this nature happen in war and one can't prevent them. Tommy Franks is a general. That's what generals do... they command wars.

Lastly, you have no idea what energy weapons are. Stop being funny and take your arguments seriously if you want any credit for your opinions.

http://www.mikrowellenterror.de/english/mw-weapon.htm

While it seems doubtful that the U.S. army would waste such efforts on a bus with a bunch of civilians, it also seemed doubtful that the U.S. and its ensuing South Vietnamese air force would waste napalm on a bunch of civilians, but they did so. Be objective.

[Shadows]

[QUOTE=Siblesz]If you could read carefully, I never defended the accusations, I merely said that I wouldn't be surprised if they proved to be right. Furthermore, I JUSTIFIED the actions of Tommy Franks, if they wound up to be true, by saying that things of this nature happen in war and one can't prevent them. Tommy Franks is a general. That's what generals do... they command wars.
While it seems doubtful that the U.S. army would waste such efforts on a bus with a bunch of civilians.QUOTE]

Good point about the Generals commanding war, its their job. if anyone is responsible for anything its the :wub:s who dragged us into their country by pissing us off.

[Shaun]

Well its war, what can people say! Im sure the Americans didnt mean to kill civilians, bit civilians die in every war.
Energy Weapon! WTF!

[Farnan]

Energy Weapon! WTF!

I thought it was just more political posturing till I saw that.

[The White Knight]

I think it's horrible that the American government...

Agh, I just can't stand neoconservatives.

[Farnan]

Actually I just saw where they got the idea of American's using an energy weapon on the bus. American Green Berets spread propaganda in Afghanastan that American's had a "Death Ray" in order to scare Taliban fighters. The "Death Ray" is the laser spotter for our air assaults. Sorry Sibelsz, that just seemed like a strange accusation. I disagree with those accusations completely though and think they are just political posturing.

[Erik]

Some Iraqis, presumbly pro-insurgent are filing charges against retired General Tommy Franks.

They citisize the US so they MUST be pro-insurgent.
Afterall, you are either with Bush or you are a with the terrorists

1. Okay, I can't see how that is a warcrime.

It is.

An occupying force has the absolute responsibility of providing for the basic needs of the people under its control, including food, clothing, shelter, medical attention, and the maintenance of law and order. An occupying force cannot just sit by as occupied territories are looted -- in almost all cases, the laws that were in place in the territory before occupation are still in place after occupation. It is only the enforcer that has changed.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/rule....htm/printable

2. Ok, so an eyewitness saw them shoot at an ambulance, ambulances were used by Iraqi guerillas as transportation and technicals, that ambulance was probably either a technical or guirellia transport.

I agree this must be investigated. (but isn't that what courts of law are for anyways?)

3. can someone clarify that, If it said that the Armored vehicle killed the driver, see above.

There is acutally a thread about this somewhere on this forum.
This happened/happens a lot in Iraq.
Any car who gets too close to a US convoy is treated as a terrorist and shot at.
Problem is: AVOIDING a convoy in the heavy trafic of downtown Baghdad is very difficult.
Many civilians don't notice the convoy until it is too late, they turn a corner and bam! they get shot because they got too close to the convoy just around the corner.

4. Last time I heard when a weapon missed and hit the wrong target, no matter how tragic, was not a warcrime.

I agree.

5. WTF? I think Drak may have influenced this one .

Exactly, WTF?

This all doesn't matter because, like Saddam, the US doesn't recognize international law and they can't be put on trial in the Hague.
They can rape and pillage all they want, nobody is going to stop them.

No matter how silly this sounds, we'll soon be hearing from the America bashers soon enough, so they can remind us how damned evil we realy are.

But you are, you realy are.

[Farnan]

Actually, I said they are pro-insurgent because they are Iraqi, and they obviously trying to use this to get public opinion against the US in order for them to leave. Above all this is a political move, as they know no matter what the court rules it will not make any effect on Tommy Franks as he just won't go to Belgium.

[abaris]

Actually, I said they are pro-insurgent because they are Iraqi, and they obviously trying to use this to get public opinion against the US in order for them to leave.

Did it ever cross your mind, that there isn't black or white? Pro Insurgent or pro American occupation? For (Bush) us or against (Bush) us?

I'm pretty sure these things happened. It's a war like some other person kindly pointed out and I wouldn't be so sure that those soldiers - in fact any soldier from any country - wouldn't do things like that intentionally. The argument about them being American and therefore would have done it accidentally if at all is ludicrous. It gives them a halo and it's a convenient way to hide behind that argument. That way everyone can justify being pro war. Yeah, we're so kind, that bad things can only happen accidentally. Face it, war's a dirty business and if you're for war, then face the dirt.

I would say, that those guys bringing the killings to the public could have another motivation than being pro insurgent. They simply could want to give guys like you (or the 40something percent of your country being still for the war) something of a wake up call.

Nevertheless I agree that Franks is the wrong person to accuse. The culprits broaden their asses in the White House and the Pentagon.

[Punkus]

As it has been said, and I quote with respect:

Funny how everyone gets worked up about defending or insulting America. I wouldn't be surprised if all of these claims proved to be right. It's war. It's expected. Instead of proudly wearing the "God Bless America" or "Bring Back the Troops" pins, maybe both groups should look at these claims in an objective stance instead of rushing to judgement...

Here here for modesty and reason!

[imb39]

I think that when a country is invaded the occupying force has to ensure that the populace is looked after. It could be argued that the Coalition's policy of disbanding the police and army without providing adequate troops to maintain order was, indeed, a war crime. I'm expert, but I think most agree that the immediate aftermath of the war was handled as badly as was possible. Now I wouldn't necessarily blame the general, either. His political overlords should be held to task - they are the ones that provide the resources for him after all.

[sephodwyrm]

I would say Gen. Tommy Franks is handicapped by the orders of the White House. If he had another 200K men, issued martial law punishable by instant execution and held the whole of Iraq with a stronghand, there would actually be less dead Iraqis.

The project of building democracy in Iraq ended up having more people killed. A country like Iraq needs a military martial government for a couple of years to rebuild the damage dealt to infrastructure and facilities after the 2 wars and the trade embargo in between. Only after a certain standard of living has been reached could there be democratic elections. Why doesn't the US learn from their occupation of Japan? Argh.

[MoROmeTe]

The definition of what war crimes are and the way one is proven quilty of them are fuzzy and so I doubt gen Franks will ever be put on trial...

So, even if the acusations are true, which numbers 1,2,3 seem to be, this is just a political act as nothing except propaganda can come out of it...