Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

[alien_t]

Of course someone developed it, probably it was developed during longer period of time by the clergy in FBE in order to provide Slavic language with script more resembling Greek alphabet so the texts from Greek could be easily translated to Slavic. But as far as I know the change of script didn't meant automatic change in language, whatever glagolitic or cyrilic alphabet was used the language was same, naturally during the time it started to resemble local languages and formed into recensions used as literary language, on the other hand spoken languages underwent similar but more radical changes so at the end they became separate languages.

I also think that the script change could not provoke automatic and fast language change. For a century or more it is probably possible. Also in those times a few people were educated, the masses were illiterate, so script change should affect only these "few people".

Main problem here is that bagatyr thinks that expect Bulgarians all other Slavic people were def and mute and didn't have language until cyrilic was created and Bulgarian language was spread across the mute masses of Slavic people who wouldn't speak at all if it wasn't for the Bulgarians

I think the misunderstanding came because of the language barrier.

[clandestino]

The misunderstanding came because bagatyr insisted that Wallachia and Moldavia were under the rule of Second Bulgarian Empire till 1330. with argument that Wallachians used titles of zupan and vojvod which are, according to him, exclusively Bulgarian titles. Consequentially, because Wallachians were used tittles of zupan, vojvod, knez etc it means that they were in fact under the Bulgarian rule. My argument is that those titles are used by pretty much all Slavic people and were probably used by Slavic people who lived in territory of present day Romania from at least 6th century which explains their usage in medieval Wallachia. Bagatiyr's response to this was that in fact all Slavic people simply took this words from Bulgarian language along with cyrilic script. So using that logic at the end any word in any Slavic language that also appears in Bulgarian language ( and that's like 90% of all words in all Slavic languages ) are in fact Bulgarian words adopted by other Slavic people along with cyrilic script and Bulgarian books

edit:
when we are already mentioning zupans I'm under the impression that this title was used mostly during the First Bulgarian empire while in the Second empire titles were pretty much copy of Byzantine ones. Are there any mentions of usage of title of zupan in Second Bulgarian empire?

[gogo t]

Ahhhhh what the hell do someone really care if wllahia was or wasn't part of Bulgaria in the last days of Bulgarian empire
Anyway post smaller posts, AM I THEW ONLY GUY WHO HATES READING LONG "ENGLISH" \bulgaro-english or serbo-english\ POSTS

[clandestino]

Ahhhhh what the hell do someone really care if wllahia was or wasn't part of Bulgaria in the last days of Bulgarian empire

I do care when someone posts megalomaniac hand-made maps of dubious credibility and makes ridiculous claims, I did the same thing when some guy put map of Wallachia in 15th century showing northern Bulgaria and Serbia as parts of Wallachia.

[phoenix[illusion]]

Ahhhhh what the hell do someone really care if wllahia was or wasn't part of Bulgaria in the last days of Bulgarian empire
Anyway post smaller posts, AM I THEW ONLY GUY WHO HATES READING LONG "ENGLISH" \bulgaro-english or serbo-english\ POSTS

well, i care cause 13th, 14th and 15th century is mine favorite period (especially 14th and 15th), cause it's the period where we got those knights from the movies, and when we think of a knight, we think of them, something like this knight (14th century)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

well it has nothing to do with bulgaria, but it's my fav period, and i consider to know more about it

I do care when someone posts megalomaniac hand-made maps of dubious credibility and makes ridiculous claims, I did the same thing when some guy put map of Wallachia in 15th century showing northern Bulgaria and Serbia as parts of Wallachia.

um i didn't get you. who showed that bulgaria and serbia was part of wallachia?

[clandestino]

Here:

Note how Smederevo which in this time is capital of Serbian despotate was in fact part of Wallachia or whatever the state is represented here.

[slavic_crusader]

LOL

[The Noble Lord]

That map is bit inconsistent indeed!

[Vojdoo]

The point is that the language, the titles and the alphabet was not spread in Wallachia and Moldova by some random proto-slavic people but by Bulgarian slavs. So Wallachia used Voevod as a title not because some Poles or Czech use it but because they were influenced by the Bulgarian court, because Wallachia and Moldova were integral part of the First Bulgarian Empire.

[clandestino]

The point is that the language, the titles and the alphabet was not spread in Wallachia and Moldova by some random proto-slavic people but by Bulgarian slavs. So Wallachia used Voevod as a title not because some Poles or Czech use it but because they were influenced by the Bulgarian court, because Wallachia and Moldova were integral part of the First Bulgarian Empire.

Slavs lived in Wallachia since 6th century, in fact Wallachia is the first place where the Slavs appear under that name, well before the first Bulgarian empire was even created. Linguistic influence of Slavic language on Romanian shows deep and thorough influence of Slavic not because of short lived rule of first Bulgarian empire ( which in fact wasn't much Slavic itself till the mid of 9th century ) over the Wallachia but because of presence of numerous Slavic population which was gradually assimilated by the Romance speaking population.

[phoenix[illusion]]

[Bagatyr]

yeah right. now we all know that almost all words that we've got are from bulgarian, even russians took from bulgarian. man, there was no slavic language, but bulgarian, and all slavic tribes toom titles from bulgarian

The fact that certain script was conceived in Bulgaria doesn't means that other people who used it adopted Bulgarian language, or better to say Bulgarian recension of Old Slavic. For example zupan is title used in Poland, Croatia, Czech and Slovenia, the lands that certainly haven't used cyrilic alphabet nor the Bulgarian books. So your theories fall into water

Main problem here is that bagatyr thinks that expect Bulgarians all other Slavic people were def and mute and didn't have language until cyrilic was created and Bulgarian language was spread across the mute masses of Slavic people who wouldn't speak at all if it wasn't for the Bulgarians

Bagatiyr's response to this was that in fact all Slavic people simply took this words from Bulgarian language along with cyrilic script. So using that logic at the end any word in any Slavic language that also appears in Bulgarian language ( and that's like 90% of all words in all Slavic languages ) are in fact Bulgarian words adopted by other Slavic people along with cyrilic script and Bulgarian books

you are so fun .You turn my words 90 decrease
I never say that 90 % of the words in serbian ,russian or whet ever lengueg are bulgarian.My point is that the clyric script was made in Bulgarian empire and with this the later slavic literature has her faundaitions from the bulgarian literature from the times of Simeon The Great,when i say words in other langueges i meen turms that are use by the bulgarian schkolary that came in to the serbian and russian from the bulgarian.Thats why Bulgarian empire is the creator of the slavic culture that she spred among the other slavs.So Nikola and clandestino don't manipulate my words! From the things i hate the most is this!

think the misunderstanding came because of the language barrier.

yep and is very BIG.

The point is that the language, the titles and the alphabet was not spread in Wallachia and Moldova by some random proto-slavic people but by Bulgarian slavs. So Wallachia used Voevod as a title not because some Poles or Czech use it but because they were influenced by the Bulgarian court, because Wallachia and Moldova were integral part of the First Bulgarian Empire.

and not only the furst but the Second two atleast untill the begining XIV century

Slavs lived in Wallachia since 6th century, in fact Wallachia is the first place where the Slavs appear under that name, well before the first Bulgarian empire was even created. Linguistic influence of Slavic language on Romanian shows deep and thorough influence of Slavic not because of short lived rule of first Bulgarian empire ( which in fact wasn't much Slavic itself till the mid of 9th century ) over the Wallachia but because of presence of numerous Slavic population which was gradually assimilated by the Romance speaking population

yep and the fly ping еlephants of NikeBG fly around Wallachia and mestiriously
the ''romanaise'' population there starte using the scrips of a langueg use by some tribse that don't know them nor how to use.So mysterious ,where could this lengueg come from?Maybe the ping elephants of NikeBG could have broth it to the untouch by bulgarian influens population .
clandestino please read the text from the diploma of wallachian prince Dan i posted!I don't see eny comentatings on him .I am tired now and i don't have the power to right more.

And one last thing -
http://liternet.bg/publish13/p_pavlov/za.htm

[Carpathian Wolf]

I do care when someone posts megalomaniac hand-made maps of dubious credibility and makes ridiculous claims, I did the same thing when some guy put map of Wallachia in 15th century showing northern Bulgaria and Serbia as parts of Wallachia.

I think that map is from the brief rule of Mihai Viteazul who unified all the Romanian lands and fought the Turks. But Bagetyr does tend to have some interesting views on history concerning the role of Bulgarians but I try to give him the benefit of a doubt.

[Wallachian]

Here:



Note how Smederevo which in this time is capital of Serbian despotate was in fact part of Wallachia or whatever the state is represented here.

No, its not. If you notice the black broken line, that marks the boundaries of Wallachia, Moldova and Transilvania. Smederovo is definetly outside all of them. Don't know what the yellow part means, might represent areas which have considerable vlach/romanian populations. It can be misleading.

[gogo t]

About the serbians- you have interest in this years, cause serbia was strong at that point... romanians- well if I was romanian I would really love to make up fun history stories too, but as I'm not

The point is that the language, the titles and the alphabet was not spread in Wallachia and Moldova by some random proto-slavic people but by Bulgarian slavs. So Wallachia used Voevod as a title not because some Poles or Czech use it but because they were influenced by the Bulgarian court, because Wallachia and Moldova were integral part of the First Bulgarian Empire.

he said it and he is right

About the knights- I really hate knight movies and stuff

[Carpathian Wolf]

Whats a "Bulgarian Slav?" A Slav ruled by the Bulgars? And why couldn't those terms have been adopted from the Slavs before there was anything such as a "Bulgarian?" Either scenario is possible but it just seems touting it about is just a way to show off e peen on the forums. "Oh you guys have this from Bulgaria rabble rabble rabble."


And yea I think the yellow means were Romance populations were present which were much larger before than even today except that there was a lot of assimilation in the past 500 (and more) years.

[Vojdoo]

Whats a "Bulgarian Slav?" A Slav ruled by the Bulgars? And why couldn't those terms have been adopted from the Slavs before there was anything such as a "Bulgarian?" Either scenario is possible but it just seems touting it about is just a way to show off e peen on the forums. "Oh you guys have this from Bulgaria rabble rabble rabble."


And yea I think the yellow means were Romance populations were present which were much larger before than even today except that there was a lot of assimilation in the past 500 (and more) years.

Because it is more logical to adopt something from foreign culture when that culture is in ascent and when the people carrying that culture rule over these lands.And I don't reject the second scenario,but i thinc that the first one is more plausible.
Why today, we all use so many English words and pop culture references?

And thank God for the Ottoman yoke, that helped the Bulgarians to assimilat the Vlach population in the past 500 years (and more).

[clandestino]

I never say that 90 % of the words in serbian ,russian or whet ever lengueg are bulgarian.My point is that the clyric script was made in Bulgarian empire and with this the later slavic literature has her faundaitions from the bulgarian literature from the times of Simeon The Great,when i say words in other langueges i meen turms that are use by the bulgarian schkolary that came in to the serbian and russian from the bulgarian.Thats why Bulgarian empire is the creator of the slavic culture that she spred among the other slavs.So Nikola and clandestino don't manipulate my words! From the things i hate the most is this!

Uhm, no '' turms '' used by '' bulgarian schkolary '' came to the Serbian and Russian from the Bulgarian since they all spoke similar languages resembling each other which are ultimately derived from the old Slavic, and the literary Old Slavic language used by the Bulgarians, Serbs and Russians was based on the language of Slavs living in vicinity of Thessaloniki in 860's and partially on the language of Moravian and Pannonian Slavs, not on Bulgarian language. Cyrilic script was conceived in Bulgaria and latter was adopted by orthodox Slavs, but the language was pretty much the same as the language of Cyril's and Methodius' texts, only in late 10th and early 11th century different recensions of that language started to appear but even then they were very close to each other.

and not only the furst but the Second two atleast untill the begining XIV century

Proof for this?? So Bulgaria which was Hungarian vassal till the mid 1260's and Tatar vassal from 1285 and which was experiencing almost constant internal struggles after the death of Ivan Asen II somehow was able to control territories over Danube for which there are direct diplomatic sources that were under Hungarian suzerainty in 1247. and 1285?

yep and the fly ping еlephants of NikeBG fly around Wallachia and mestiriously
the ''romanaise'' population there starte using the scrips of a langueg use by some tribse that don't know them nor how to use.So mysterious ,where could this lengueg come from?Maybe the ping elephants of NikeBG could have broth it to the untouch by bulgarian influens population .
clandestino please read the text from the diploma of wallachian prince Dan i posted!I don't see eny comentatings on him .I am tired now and i don't have the power to right more.

Uhm Romanians started using cyrilic script and Slavic as liturgical and literary language for the same reason that Germans or Hungarians used Latin script and language in their culture in middle ages. The Slavic tribes in Wallachia were probably christianised by the Slavic missionaries from the Balkan who were using cyrilic script, since the missionaries and script were coming from the Bulgaria which in that period ruled most of the Balkan it's naturally that it was called Bulgarian script, and since latter Bulgaria was closest country using that script as native it was natural to call it that way. When the Slavs became romanized Old Slavic language remained literary language in Wallachia although common people were no longer speaking Slavic. On the other side of Balkan however cyrilic script was called Serbian script ( in Dubrovnik and Bosnia ) because it came there via Serbia and the closest country using it as it's native script was Serbia.

yep and the fly ping еlephants of NikeBG fly around Wallachia and mestiriously
the ''romanaise'' population there starte using the scrips of a langueg use by some tribse that don't know them nor how to use.So mysterious ,where could this lengueg come from?Maybe the ping elephants of NikeBG could have broth it to the untouch by bulgarian influens population .

So Bulgarians of the first empire spread Slavic language in Wallachia in the time when even Bulgarians themselves weren't speaking Slavic language but old Bulgar language? As far as I know Slavic language didn't prevail in Bulgaria somewhere until Boris.
If you knew anything about history you would know that Slavic tribes first time appear under that name in wallachian planes in 6th century ( they probably lived there in 5th as well ), they latter partially came under the domination of Bulgars ( somewhere around 680. ) like the Slavs south from Danube. Gradually they mixed with the Romance population probably living in the Carpathians and lost their language, in turn however Romanian language adopted great deal of Slavic words. They weren't some Bulgarian Slavs cause that would mean that they should be settled there from late 9th century when old Bulgars were finally slavicized in something that could be called Bulgarian Slavs. However as shown before Slavs lived in Wallachia well before Bulgars or even Slavs settled on Balkan, so there is no possible way that they could be Bulgarian Slavs from Balkan.

[clandestino]

sorry double post:
I haven't noticed link to P.Petrov's article earlier, it's quite interesting although quite unsubstantiated, one source he is mentioning '' itinerary of Bruge '' is clearly written after 1360's but it mentions certain towns as Bulgarian which are ( quite arbitrary ) identified by Petrov as Sibiu and Trgoviste in Romania , however there is very little doubt that Sibiu was part of Hungaria in this time and that Wallachia had independent rulers at this point. So or the itinerary is wrong or Petrov and Tăpkowa-Zaimowa made mistake in identifications of theses cities.

[Hrobatos]

c. On the other side of Balkan however cyrilic script was called Serbian script ( in Dubrovnik and Bosnia ) because it came there via Serbia and the closest country using it as it's native script was Serbia.

in southern Croatia, Dubrovnik and parts of Dalmatia which was under Bosnian Kingdom it was called bosančica ( bosnian script) I dont know how was it called in Bosnia