Civilization IV and BC 3.0...

[tallstark]

OK, first and foremost big props to BC team, you have a unique mod and for sure it requires different strategies than any other mod. I posted something similar a few years ago but nobody could figure out how to do it, but since you are working on a new mod and all... If you wanted trade and diplomacy to mirror real life country relationships, there is an idea Civ has that would rock in BC.

If you have not played Civ, it works something like this; resources are required for some units, and add other benefits as well. For instance if there are no horses in your native lands and you can't arrange trade for them, you have no cavalry. So, what do you think of the idea of resources affecting availability to weapons, armor or upgrades etc? It would make an interesting game dynamic. Its also totally realistic; Kuwait for instance in 1991 had no legitimate military power in the world but look what happened when someone decided to come grab their oil?

Imagine KoJ has an iron resource, and is providing "Damascus Steel, +1 AP to all melee weapons" to its 5 trading partners. One of them steps out of line and they end trade relationships and that country falls behind and declares war to go get its steel; will the other 4 protect their flow of goods or do they all pile on?

Just noodling, but some resource = benefit ideas
Slaves = cheaper construction costs
Wines = +1 to Inn and Brothel effects, good and bad
Iron = 20% discount to build Smith buildings
Furs = +1 movement in winter
Silks = +1 happiness to towns.

Of course it would require a big overhaul in AI, as most of their decisions right now are too random and it would really probably be a nightmare with things being available then not every few turns. I guess the point is at this point the trade relationship piece is really pretty crazy and has no real logic, whereas in the real world its one of the main reasons anything happens.

Thoughts?

[Tintin2]

OK, first and foremost big props to BC team, you have a unique mod and for sure it requires different strategies than any other mod. I posted something similar a few years ago but nobody could figure out how to do it, but since you are working on a new mod and all... If you wanted trade and diplomacy to mirror real life country relationships, there is an idea Civ has that would rock in BC.

If you have not played Civ, it works something like this; resources are required for some units, and add other benefits as well. For instance if there are no horses in your native lands and you can't arrange trade for them, you have no cavalry. So, what do you think of the idea of resources affecting availability to weapons, armor or upgrades etc? It would make an interesting game dynamic. Its also totally realistic; Kuwait for instance in 1991 had no legitimate military power in the world but look what happened when someone decided to come grab their oil?

Imagine KoJ has an iron resource, and is providing "Damascus Steel, +1 AP to all melee weapons" to its 5 trading partners. One of them steps out of line and they end trade relationships and that country falls behind and declares war to go get its steel; will the other 4 protect their flow of goods or do they all pile on?

Just noodling, but some resource = benefit ideas
Slaves = cheaper construction costs
Wines = +1 to Inn and Brothel effects, good and bad
Iron = 20% discount to build Smith buildings
Furs = +1 movement in winter
Silks = +1 happiness to towns.

Of course it would require a big overhaul in AI, as most of their decisions right now are too random and it would really probably be a nightmare with things being available then not every few turns. I guess the point is at this point the trade relationship piece is really pretty crazy and has no real logic, whereas in the real world its one of the main reasons anything happens.

Thoughts?

I really like this idea, this would make things much harder but also more realistic and fun.
Tho, I do not know this is possible with the M2TW engine.
W'ell just have to wait until an expert comes along to give his opinion.
I just replied to inform that I like the idea

[dknight237]

I agree this would be awesome. It might be easier to mod Civ 4 though. If a future game could somehow combine the real time battles of the Total War series with the campaign AI of Civ 4 that would be something

[Shasqua]

An easier thing might just be to have most units require iron and perhaps coal. Horses could be added as a resource; many a war was fought for control of the Nisaean plains, which were world-famous for excellent horses. Then we'd see some crucial regions and wars fought for resources. No idea if resources can be modded to be tradeable like in Civ IV, though. But that would be great.

[nhinhonhinho]

I like this idea.It will make game harder and more fun

[Vaz]

If you have not played Civ, it works something like this; resources are required for some units, and add other benefits as well. For instance if there are no horses in your native lands and you can't arrange trade for them, you have no cavalry. So, what do you think of the idea of resources affecting availability to weapons, armor or upgrades etc? It would make an interesting game dynamic. Its also totally realistic; Kuwait for instance in 1991 had no legitimate military power in the world but look what happened when someone decided to come grab their oil?

They also had no/little need for one at that current time.

Imagine KoJ has an iron resource, and is providing "Damascus Steel, +1 AP to all melee weapons" to its 5 trading partners. One of them steps out of line and they end trade relationships and that country falls behind and declares war to go get its steel; will the other 4 protect their flow of goods or do they all pile on?

Impossible to have a varied roster in this case. You're limited to 500 Different Units. This doesn't mean for example, "Spear Militia" variants if they use the same model and stats etc, as multiple factions can "use" the model.

However, the issue comes when you change the stats, especially multiples

For example, say Damascan Steel - +1 Attack and grants AP. You'll need to make that for all units. Hence, double unit cost. It's gets exponential should you add in extras. For example, Furs, could grant boni to units equipped with them. So, then that's 4 seperate units - Basic unit/Damascus Steel/Furs/Damascus Steel+Furs.

Add in a third variant, such as say tin mines allowing access to bronze armour, granting an additional bonus to armour of units in that area - you're looking at 8 seperate units - Basic unit/Steel/Furs/Bronze/Steel+Furs/Steel+Bronze/Furs+Bronze/Steel+Furs+Bronze.

The next best thing is to tie particular regions to have a particular capability off the bat. For example, say in Damascus, they make better Steel than anywhere else. To incorporate that into the mod, then they could start with access to a Swordmasters guild, or a Blacksmiths capable of making weapon upgrades. However, that would only be available to that settlement.

That's the only way that units can be influenced however, other than by traits, which effect cost of recruitment. Say a governer with access to Gold can outfit his troops out of his own wealth, resulting in less cost from the Community Chest. We can also tie that wealth to the region so that as soon as that Governer moves out of the area, he looses that trait - or even better, that Gold is lost as soon as he helps outfit (recruit/retrain) a set of units.

The way this works - General moves into a settlement, and has the highest Piety, becoming the Governer. Settlement has access to a Gold Mine. This results in him automatically acquiring that gold - giving him the "Gold" trait. This reduces the cost of Agents/Units recruited in that region until said Governer leaves the Region. This governer keeps the gold trait, even should he join another settlement without access to a Gold Mine. Using his new personal wealth, that governer can outfit a regiment, but he no longer has access to that limitless wealth, and it soon runs out. The next turn, he loses the Gold Trait, and won't have it until he becomes that governer of a settlement with a gold mine in.

I'll propose the idea to the team, and see what they say about implementing it.

[tallstark]

They also had no/little need for one at that current time.


Impossible to have a varied roster in this case. You're limited to 500 Different Units. This doesn't mean for example, "Spear Militia" variants if they use the same model and stats etc, as multiple factions can "use" the model.

However, the issue comes when you change the stats, especially multiples

For example, say Damascan Steel - +1 Attack and grants AP. You'll need to make that for all units. Hence, double unit cost. It's gets exponential should you add in extras. For example, Furs, could grant boni to units equipped with them. So, then that's 4 seperate units - Basic unit/Damascus Steel/Furs/Damascus Steel+Furs.

Add in a third variant, such as say tin mines allowing access to bronze armour, granting an additional bonus to armour of units in that area - you're looking at 8 seperate units - Basic unit/Steel/Furs/Bronze/Steel+Furs/Steel+Bronze/Furs+Bronze/Steel+Furs+Bronze.

The next best thing is to tie particular regions to have a particular capability off the bat. For example, say in Damascus, they make better Steel than anywhere else. To incorporate that into the mod, then they could start with access to a Swordmasters guild, or a Blacksmiths capable of making weapon upgrades. However, that would only be available to that settlement.

That's the only way that units can be influenced however, other than by traits, which effect cost of recruitment. Say a governer with access to Gold can outfit his troops out of his own wealth, resulting in less cost from the Community Chest. We can also tie that wealth to the region so that as soon as that Governer moves out of the area, he looses that trait - or even better, that Gold is lost as soon as he helps outfit (recruit/retrain) a set of units.

The way this works - General moves into a settlement, and has the highest Piety, becoming the Governer. Settlement has access to a Gold Mine. This results in him automatically acquiring that gold - giving him the "Gold" trait. This reduces the cost of Agents/Units recruited in that region until said Governer leaves the Region. This governer keeps the gold trait, even should he join another settlement without access to a Gold Mine. Using his new personal wealth, that governer can outfit a regiment, but he no longer has access to that limitless wealth, and it soon runs out. The next turn, he loses the Gold Trait, and won't have it until he becomes that governer of a settlement with a gold mine in.

I'll propose the idea to the team, and see what they say about implementing it.

Yeah good call, I can see it being much easier as an ancillary. Say "horsetrader" or "coalminer" with the right bonuses for recruitment, public order etc...

My thoughts on the trade to other factions come from the the fact the game already keeps track of it in the details of trade in each settlement, i.e. when I have trade with Baghdad it shows up there. I was thinking of some sort of "if, then" logic which I imagine is how spies work with public unrest. i.e. the engine looks at Ani, and sees two spies, and does something like "IF spies, Then minus 10 public order" so why not "IF silk in trade, Then plus 10 public order" or something like that?

On the 8 different unit types, I am not familiar with how the game codes now. How does it track experience, armor or weapons upgrades? For instance is it basic/basic +1 exp/basic +2/basic weapon upgrade etc??? Thanks for the feedback BTW, I might take a crack at it myself just to learn it, its turning out to be fun learning about this!

[Vaz]

Less Ancillary. Maybe they can be granted on rare occasions. You're limited to 8, only, remember.

As to the "if spies, if silk", you're forgetting what that limitation is.

Spies have that ability hardcoded to them - AFAIK, our only capability is to be able to modify the value at which a settlement feels that negative public disorder (by dint of a multiplier, nothing more difficult than multiplying that value by 0.0 (nothing) to, well, infinity for 0 public order.

Basically, for units, when you create a unit, you have certain values which you can modify - i.e. it's own attributes (such as Fear causing etc), it's attack, and what effect those attackshave (i.e ap), and it's armour (whether it's wearing armour, how skilled, and whether it's got a shield, big one, little one etc).

What we don't have control over is the effect of experience, or what the effect of armour and weapon upgrades are, etc. I believe it's worked out that each armour upgrade grants +2 to the armour value, weapon upgrades grant +6. Experience, I don't know, but I have a feeling that the attack value increase is around +2 aswell, but I think that's harder to figure out, and lack the interest in findiing out currently.

However, we cannot modify those values in anyway - the only control available is the allowing of armour improvement, or not in this case.

You have a limit of 500 units. You cannot upgrade or modify them in game other than by armour upgrades, weapon upgrades and experience, which as I've said, there is no control over. If you want to create a variant of that unit, such as by saying "if unit is recruited in x location where y resource is", then you have to use a new unit slot.

It's done via an event, basically - lets use generic unit, "Militia", for this example.

If we were able to mod the game in the way you're suggesting, (that's not possible), then we would result in all that particular factions Militia units with say +1 Attack and AP.

There are two workarounds -

The first way, which is the easiest, is just allow that faction to have a new blacksmith building require the "steel" resource, and this new "steel" resource would upgrade the attack of the unit (which as you can see is quite hefty).

The second way, however, is unit heavy when you're coming up with additional variants, like I said, with the combinations.

This would involve a script which would enable the recruitment of "Militia Steel" units but disable "Militia" in those. Very scrappy, workaround, and draws heavily on the unit limit. This is just an FYI, by the way. Over something so little, which can be represented in a better way (i.e by traits and the aforementioned in engine changes), there is not a cat in hells chance I'll even be encouraging the suggestion of removing some units to make way for this.