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  1. #1
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default ChickenHawk

    Chickenhawk is a derisive term used by opponents of a war in order to attack the supporters of the war. They say that since politician x was not in a war he cannot have an opinion supporting a war. I find this notion preposturious. Should only those who have been in court have an opinion supporting a law? That idea is as equally preposturious as the idea of a chickenhawk. What do you think of this term.

    Oh ya, by the way I plan on joining the military, so this isn't just me trying to show why I can support the war.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  2. #2

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    The notion is idiotic.

    Do you have to be a policeman to be against crime? Do you have to be a doctor to try and stop death?

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  3. #3

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    in my opinion - chickenhawk is a person who talks like a hawk, but acts like chicken.
    Picture like this comes to mind:
    a small guy urging a gang of big fellows to beat up another small guy. The urging guy would a chickenhawk.

    If you find that this picture fits to describe a few of your favourite politicians, then they are chickenhawks too.

  4. #4
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    It realy depends on how you defien "Chickenhawk"

    http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki...%28politics%29
    Origin

    Chickenhawk is a compound of "chicken" as in "coward" and "hawk" as in "pro-war," thus a chickenhawk is someone who is in favor of a war as long as someone else does the fighting and dying.
    Notice: this isn't the only defenition of the word.

    In the defenition of "supporting the war as long as somebody else does the fighting and dying" I agree with the term.
    This doesn't mean you can't be pro-war without being in the military but if you happen to be in the military and support the war you should not protest when being send out, and neither should you complain if your friends and family are send out and get killed.

    ps: I think Bush fits the defenition of a chickenhawk because he made a special efford not to go to Vietnam, but he did support the war.

    edit: I think the term applies much more easily when there is a draft.
    People who support a war should not complain when they get drafted.
    In modern days, with all volunteer armies, it doesn't realy work.



  5. #5
    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    I agree with you Erik. My brother was shipped out to Kuwait 2 years ago. He never complained once. When I join in March if I get shipped to Iraq I would serve my country proudly and never complain.
    Farnan-What branch are you considering?

  6. #6

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    Do you have to smoke pot in order to understand the affects it has on your mind and body?


    Yes.


    Do you have to smoke pot to have an opinion on its legality?

    No, but it helps your case if you actually know on a first hand basis.


    Do you have to be a soldier to truly understand the affects war has on a person?


    I think...yes. Again, it helps if a politician has actually seen war firsthand....I.E. John Kerry, John Mccain...

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA
    Do you have to smoke pot in order to understand the affects it has on your mind and body?


    Yes.


    Do you have to smoke pot to have an opinion on its legality?

    No, but it helps your case if you actually know on a first hand basis.


    Do you have to be a soldier to truly understand the affects war has on a person?


    I think...yes. Again, it helps if a politician has actually seen war firsthand....I.E. John Kerry, John Mccain...

    I think the question is whether or not you are qualified to have an opinion on the way we fight the war on terror.

    To say that only those who have served on active duty in the armed forces are qualified to have an opinion on how to fight a war is absurd, IMO.

    Many great leaders have never served.

    Does it help?

    Of course. But we're all Americans and have a vested interest in this nation. What we do and how we fufill our part is as important as what our part happens to be.

    Were the hard working and sacraficing women working in the mills during WW2 unqualified to have an opinion about the way the war was going?

    Of course not.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  8. #8
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Army, probably Active Duty unless something comes up. (by this I don't mean war, I mean family concerns or other major duties that I need to address)
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  9. #9
    Templedog's Avatar Biarchus
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    close this ****ing thread too then....jesus

    you like chickenhawks? you make me sick....pathetic

    just because your brother or friend or what not has served, still makes you a hawk. Hell, I'm from a military family, if I supported this war I would be a hawk. Only reason for me not to go is because I believe this war is a sham. If you don't think it is.....go fight in it, i can atleast respect that....unlike the chickenhawks.


    They got lucky and hijacked some airplanes. I could of done that drunk. War on terror is BS.

  10. #10
    Hub'ite's Avatar Primicerius
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    RZZZA I don't think you need to bring up John Kerry's military career. It's not very creditable. lol Farnan the Army has a lot to offer. I was thinking about joining the Army. I ended up choosing the Air Guard. I want to work with planes. Probably become a mechanic.
    Thank you Templedog for gracing us with your presence again. Please stop your spamming. It's getting rather annoying.

  11. #11
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hub'ite
    RZZZA I don't think you need to bring up John Kerry's military career. It's not very creditable. lol Farnan the Army has a lot to offer. I was thinking about joining the Army. I ended up choosing the Air Guard. I want to work with planes. Probably become a mechanic.
    Thank you Templedog for gracing us with your presence again. Please stop your spamming. It's getting rather annoying.
    Yea, bringing up John Kerry starts a storm of controversy.

    A mechanic is an honorable position, neccessary for the nation to make war. I plan to be an officer in the Armor or infantry. I might transfer to Military Intellegence later though.

    Quote Originally Posted by templedog
    farnan, I always insult chickenhawks, that wasn't the purpose of my thread. No one can justify that a chickenhawk is a good thing.
    neither is it a bad thing. Not everyone needs to be a soldier, if it was so, what is the purpose of a military.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Templedog's Avatar Biarchus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan
    Not everyone needs to be a soldier, if it was so, what is the purpose of a military.

    umm, being part of the war, as in donating and making self sacrifices. Not just babble on about it. No, you don't have to be a soldier, but you do have to take part in it.


    They got lucky and hijacked some airplanes. I could of done that drunk. War on terror is BS.

  13. #13
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Sorry, Templedog but the point of your thread was to insult people by calling them chickenhawks, the point of my thread is to discuss whether or not the concept of chickenhawk is valid.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  14. #14
    Templedog's Avatar Biarchus
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    farnan, I always insult chickenhawks, that wasn't the purpose of my thread. No one can justify that a chickenhawk is a good thing.


    They got lucky and hijacked some airplanes. I could of done that drunk. War on terror is BS.

  15. #15
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templedog
    farnan, I always insult chickenhawks.
    I call this an open-shut case. Templedog you are hearby proved guilty of flaming by a council of three.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  16. #16
    Templedog's Avatar Biarchus
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    Hub'ite, just trying to educate.


    They got lucky and hijacked some airplanes. I could of done that drunk. War on terror is BS.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templedog
    Hub'ite, just trying to educate.
    Templedog, man, most of your posts don't have information in them. They are mouth-foaming flames or just political sound bites you've picked up on Micheal Moore's website.

    I hate saying these things...but frankly bud, if you were my kid you would have had a time out by now.


    Go relax for a bit dude. And please, for all of our sake's ...lay off the coffee!!!
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  18. #18
    Templedog's Avatar Biarchus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Alameda
    Templedog, man, most of your posts don't have information in them. They are mouth-foaming flames or just political sound bites you've picked up on Micheal Moore's website.

    I hate saying these things...but frankly bud, if you were my kid you would have had a time out by now.


    Go relax for a bit dude. And please, for all of our sake's ...lay off the coffee!!!

    enough of your personal attacks toward me....give it a rest.


    They got lucky and hijacked some airplanes. I could of done that drunk. War on terror is BS.

  19. #19

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    Bill of Rights
    Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    You know what the best part of this country is? I can say whatever I want, to whomever I want, whenever I damn well please. My opinions on anything in the United States of Friggin America are my buisiness and none of yours. I can support anything I want, and it realy doesn't concern you, so butt out of my buisiness and opinions.

    So Chickenhawk mein Dummkopf!

  20. #20

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    ps: I think Bush fits the defenition of a chickenhawk because he made a special efford not to go to Vietnam, but he did support the war.
    First, let's dispense with the idea that Bush was some sort of chicken hawk, hiding in the National Guard while others risked their lives. According to four of the pilots who flew with him, then-Lieutenant George W. Bush was a better-than-average pilot who did a dangerous job very well.

    If all you know about flying fighters was learned watching Tom Cruise in Top Gun, you can be forgiven for thinking it's nothing but reckless fun, hard drinking, and a steady stream of beautiful girls. (That's only what the jet jocks want you to believe). The reality is that it's a hazardous business that will kill you — long before any enemy gets the chance to — if you aren't up to the job. My college roommate, retired Air Force Colonel Ed Atkins, flew fighters for 20 years. Ed told me, "Anybody who thinks that flying fighters is not exhausting physically, demanding intellectually, and tough emotionally just has no clue about the complexity of air combat." He added, "I've flown check rides as everything from a second lieutenant to a colonel. The [flight examiner] doesn't give a damn if your dad was George H.W. Bush, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Jesus or Moses. The only question is, 'can you hack the mission?'" And it's harder to do in some aircraft than others. Dubya had the right stuff.

    Retired Col. Bill Campenni was one of President Bush's squadron mates. The Texas ANG had the F-102, and probably wished it didn't. According to Campenni, "The F-102 was underpowered and, unlike modern fighters, had a split front view through the canopy. It literally had a bar down the center, so you'd have one eye on each side of the bar. It also had a built in altimeter error of up to 500 feet, which made it interesting when you were at 500 feet out over the ocean at night." Flying and training in the '102 was a dangerous job that required a lot of smarts and flying skill.

    Bob Harmon is another of Bush's former squadron mates. At the time, Harmon was an instructor pilot. He remembers Bush as a "young, affable guy" and an above-average pilot, very good for his level of experience. "We flew together two or three times a month." It was dangerous duty. Harmon said that a couple of pilots were killed in F-102 accidents while Bush was there.

    The first American jet fighters to be deployed to Vietnam were F-102s of the 509th Fighter Interceptor Squadron. When Lt. Bush signed up for fighters and joined the 111th FIS, he stood ready to deploy to Vietnam, as did every other Air National Guard pilot. In fact, he tried to volunteer for Vietnam.
    Of the four pilots I spoke to who flew with Bush in the Texas days, Fred Bradley knew him best. They had met before going off to the year-long ordeal of pilot school, and entered the 111th at about the same time. Both were junior lieutenants without a lot of flying experience. But the inexperience didn't prevent Bush — along with Bradley — from going to their squadron leaders to see if they could get into a program called "Palace Alert." "There were four of us lieutenants at the time, and we were all fairly close. Two of them had more flight time than the president and me, said Bradley." All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn't remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork, but he specifically remembers both Bush and himself trying to get into the Palace Alert Vietnam program.) Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam.
    Joe Glavin, another member of Dubya's squadron said, "There were always a core of the guys who were the "in guys" and [Bush] was in the middle of it...George's difference was that we all knew that his daddy was rich and that he was smarter than the rest of us." Smarter? "I don't understand where [people saying Dubya is a dummy] comes from." Glavin explained that because their squadron was an active duty squadron, they always had two aircraft — armed and fueled — standing on the taxiway on what is called "plus five" alert. From the time the horn blows, until the time the aircraft was wheels-up on takeoff had to be five minutes or less.

    Glavin said, "When we had to sit alerts, there were two pilots, and two crew chiefs that sat out in the alert barn. George was like everybody else, except while George was over in a corner reading somebody's autobiography, the rest of us were watching Hee Haw."

    Glavin remembers Bush as a pilot who had learned good judgment, not a Hollywood hot dog. He told me of one night when the two were on alert and were scrambled to run a practice intercept over the Gulf of Mexico. Bush went out long and high, and turned back at supersonic speed. Glavin also went supersonic and then his radio failed. At that point, the two F-102s were approaching each other at a combined speed of about 1,800 miles an hour. At 20 miles — about 45 seconds before the paths would cross — Bush broke off the intercept. "We went to debrief with the controller and the controller said to George, why'd you break off the intercept? George said something to the effect of '[here] we're coming at each other at 1,800 miles an hour and he doesn't have a radio and you expect me to just sit there?' He said, 'we're not doin' that.'"

    When you fly fighters with any squadron, you're literally betting your life on your pals' flying skills, just as they are betting it all on yours. Bush's old squadron-mates have the same confidence in him now they had when they flew with him. Bradley said, "I've always thought he was an intelligent, likeable, level-headed person." According to Glavin, "George was a smart man, an excellent pilot, and I'd fly with him again tomorrow, and I will vote for him in November." Which is about as high as praise gets among the jet jocks.
    Chickenhawk indeed.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


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