Developing castles

[Alex-ander]

With the new higher population requirements to develop cities /castles in 2.1. I think that the growth rate of castles needs a bit of a rethink. Castles now need 5000 + population to develop to the next stage one of mine needs 12000.

Most of my castles are increasing at 0.5% which will take a long long time before they can be developed. You can not change the tax rate in a castle so you are stuck with a very low growth rate. At least with a city you can put it on very low tax to speed up the development.

Yes you can move governors around but even then you are unlikely to get more than 1% growth in the castle.

[Messremb]

Since in TA are no family names, you can always adopt whole-heartedly the gen. you like as only family members seem to give growth at first. Starting gen.s need to sit and build quite a bit before they get traits and ancillaries with bonuses.

But architects, doctors and traits like urban planner, farming expert, give decent bonuses and/or reduce squalor; combined with max farming it is possible, I think.

You can always edit the descr_settlements_mechanics to values you like. The settings are a bit over the top but they might be more fun in the long run of a campaign. Haven't gotten there yet.

[slowbro]

With the new higher population requirements to develop cities /castles in 2.1. I think that the growth rate of castles needs a bit of a rethink. Castles now need 5000 + population to develop to the next stage one of mine needs 12000.

Most of my castles are increasing at 0.5% which will take a long long time before they can be developed. You can not change the tax rate in a castle so you are stuck with a very low growth rate. At least with a city you can put it on very low tax to speed up the development.

Yes you can move governors around but even then you are unlikely to get more than 1% growth in the castle.

That is very true only castles that are already upgraded and cities are of any use as it is now.

I noticed that, with 2.1 out, my castles don't really grow any more. Even with a good builder or high chiv general stationed there it takes way past date 3000 to get to the first stone wall and most castles never reach fortress level any more (growth stops before the neccessary population is reached). So far seen with Gundanabad, Dwarfs and Eriador/Anor. Cities are fine.

I realize the whole thing is balanced for the high boni AI but right now it feels a little bit unbalanced. The only way to get a castle or fortress until the mid campaign is letting the enemy build it for you.

Since in TA are no family names, you can always adopt whole-heartedly the gen. you like as only family members seem to give growth at first. Starting gen.s need to sit and build quite a bit before they get traits and ancillaries with bonuses.

But architects, doctors and traits like urban planner, farming expert, give decent bonuses and/or reduce squalor; combined with max farming it is possible, I think.

You can always edit the descr_settlements_mechanics to values you like. The settings are a bit over the top but they might be more fun in the long run of a campaign. Haven't gotten there yet.

I unlike you have played long campaign and know that a settlement with 404 pop (orc outpost) which starts with 0% growth can only build one farm upgrade and no other buildings apart from mustering hall which gives whopping 0.5 % growth rate untill you reach 1200 pop. There is no squallor to reduce so its straight math it takes 219 turns to get to next level which i think is a bit of an oversight since most campaigns are over by then. The same castle under AI gets 2% growth rate.
Evil generals don't get chivalry bonuses which means no growth from them either.

[Lothar135]

I agree.
In my games the towns are recruitment centres, not castles, since castles are too small and cant produce high tier units very looooooong time. And castles dont fill my coffers as quickly as towns. So I do think castles are a little bit useless...

[Messremb]

The same recruiting buildings gets built faster in the castles and I guess units are the same, trust KK to know what he's doing.

[Vaz]

I think the purpose may well have been just that. As a good player exclusively, I rarely have too many issues with villages or castles - villages are simple enough to use as there is only ever one build path to take until they become large towns etc, and they're cheap enough to always have something being built.

With castles however, it's more a case of building the required garrison buildings and blacksmiths etc to replenish troops fighting at the front line or defensive hordes.

Currently I'm in contol of Dains halls as Arnor. My troops aren't all Dismounted Knights and Hollow Steel Bowmen, they're Men at Arms and Militia at best. I'm fighting battles and losing 2 or 3 units a turn but I'm able to hold easily enough and get fresh troops to counter the Rhun forces embedded in Gundabad and Isengard forces from the Misty Mountains.

As a city I couldn't do that - I regularly fight the stacks even now in the quadrangle, and can't replace them as quick.

[slowbro]

The problem is if i can't upgrade the walls that castle is a death trap vs the neighbouring elves their archers shoot over the walls into town square and my snagas can just stand there and die. With walls they would have some protection. but stone walls are 379 turns away

[Alex-ander]

Yes one of my castles (dwarf castle in the west) stopped growing at 4000 so it will take a lot of moving governors about to even have a chance of getting to 5000. And Azanulimbar-Dum has stopped growing at 9000 and i need 12000 to upgrade it. This is mid campaign and i doubt either will be upgraded before the campaign finishes.

[Messremb]

All fair and well, but over that long campaign, how much impact that small castle had? Most factions have one or two more advanced settlements either castles (fortresses, citadels) or cities and they are the well-spring of higher tier units that die harder and last longer, forming the backbone of armies, the rest are just income mines. Put the exact garrison that has free upkeep, don't build anything unnecessary and ignore them.
Concentrate the gen.s that have decent traits where they matter and have the most impact.

Like I said- if the settings really don't work for you, edit them yourself.

[slowbro]

Yes one of my castles (dwarf castle in the west) stopped growing at 4000 so it will take a lot of moving governors about to even have a chance of getting to 5000. And Azanulimbar-Dum has stopped growing at 9000 and i need 12000 to upgrade it. This is mid campaign and i doubt either will be upgraded before the campaign finishes.

The situation is worst for OOMM and OOG: In vanilla M2TW you could justify having a chivalrous general (since no one was really evil) and then pop him after a crusade or 2 into some settlement to watch it grow. Having an orcthat is forced into respecting prisoners, being kind in battle, sparing populance and not going on invasions (they give dread) just so he can help grow some settlement is bit of an oversight i think

[Gharbad the Weak]

The problem is if i can't upgrade the walls that castle is a death trap vs the neighbouring elves their archers shoot over the walls into town square and my snagas can just stand there and die. With walls they would have some protection. but stone walls are 379 turns away

You could move around your best gouvenors (With high chivalry and/or architect and such) to your smallest town so they don't lag behind too much. Especially when they are sitting in a large city otherwise.

[slowbro]

You could move around your best gouvenors (With high chivalry and/or architect and such) to your smallest town so they don't lag behind too much. Especially when they are sitting in a large city otherwise.

That is a good tactic if you're playing good however
architect only affects squalor and that only kicks in when the place is nearing to next pop level and my orcs don't get chivalry they are orcs

[Halvar von Flake]

I think it can be quite frustrating to destroy one faction after another with bodyguards and breeland militia...I pledge for either higher castle growth rates...or stronger enemies!

[Messremb]

That's the thing! The growth initial bonus of the gen has nothing to do with chivalry anymore. I don't know how is for bad factions but here's my example I had with Gondor: I had the starting gen from Pelargir and the guy had 4 or 5 chiv but no bonus. I moved him to siege Osgiliath and when he captured it got 'soft judge or smth and the bonus. So.... trial and error, do some testing for yourselves and see what gives KK and JaL are clever and devious guys, who knows what hidden treats they've set up.

[slowbro]

chivalry gives growth bonus i think its 0.5% per 3 ranks or so

[Messremb]

Not true anymore. I had plenty gen with bundles of chiv and no bonus and Gandalf has no traits or ancill that give bonus and +1% from the get go.

In my exp, not sure if completely true, family members with chiv get the bonus while the starting gens have to earn it by a few good actions.

[slowbro]

Not true anymore. I had plenty gen with bundles of chiv and no bonus and Gandalf has no traits or ancill that give bonus and +1% from the get go.

In my exp, not sure if completely true, family members with chiv get the bonus while the starting gens have to earn it by a few good actions.

Yes it is and i can prove it here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Its turn one gondor easily checked and you can compare it to any general with 2 or 1 respect/chivalry. And you keep making assumptions with zero knowledge of game mechanics as usual I see.

[kaltorak]

Well for me is kinda frustrating to se annuminas grow to a huge city from the starting 1000 something population, while amon sul or fornost are still just small castles, unable to recruit almost anything usefull.. This are human, homever dunedain, but still human settlements! At turn 104 ( still small castle, pop. 3400, growth 1,5%) I sent a spy to almost from the begging dwarf controlled castle od Dains hall and to my surprise, it is swarming with some 16000 dwarves!! That is ridiculous, unless Aule thought the dwarven masons how to cut new dwarves out of stone...

[Vaz]

Talking of assumptions has any one checked the raw data at all?

[slowbro]

- <factor name="SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE">
<pip_modifier value="0.3" />

<pip_min value="0" />

<pip_max value="8" />

</factor>