The High Elves (and other, more 'random' Elves)

[LordHoth]

Sorry, if this is something that has been covered elsewhere, but I thought to make a question about it:

Why do the High Elves own Sindar cities such as Harlond and Mithlond? Are there any serious gameplay benefits due to this, that are lost on me, or is it simply because with only Imladris, the High Elves would be defeated in a few turns?

[In general, I do not agree with the overall disposition of the High Elves and Sindar on the map (the allotment of settlements, or the division of factions into such), but this seemed to be the biggest single question for me.]


NB"! Again, sorry if this has been covered before, but I am somewhat new to these fora.

[slowbro]

http://www.tuckborough.net/lands.html#Lindon

[LordHoth]

Sorry, but that page pretty much reasserts what I said, unless indeed under the High Elves it is rather meant the Kingdom of Gil-Galad (or, if it can be so called, the Rulership of the Noldoli). As is, already during the end of the First Age, several High Elven kings ruled over lots of Sindarin Elves. After the War of Wrath, this increased dramatically due to the number of Noldoli who left for Valinor -- can't say you'd have a 'pure' Noldoli kingdom ever after that. Consider also that Noldoli kept leaving Middle Earth during all that time, and Harlond was pretty much the new place for the old Sindarin harbors of Cirdan the Shipwright (oh, whose names I can't remember, but which kept being sieged in the First Age).

EDIT: By that above I mean that the Sindarin Elves have likely replaced the majority of the Noldoli who ever lived in Middle Earth, and the Noldoli who did continue around, likely gathered around the two remaining great (or 'High') Elves (Galadriel, and the Half-Elf Elrond, who still would be of greater descent than the Sindar).

[slowbro]

Well if you after lore epeen contest why not post in
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=203040
or if you have questions for the team
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=261921
pretty sure both threads will help you in one way or the other

[LordHoth]

No, I'm not strictly after that.

I was wondering also if someone had tried a game where these provinces would be half-High Elf, half-Sindarin and such. How much game-balance is actually built by giving these cities to the High Elves? And, yes, please don't come and tell me that I should go and do this testing myself, for while I would very much love to do so, it is at the present quite impossible (relating to the fact that I have lots of problems with installing stuff on my computer which, however important is to me, is in reality not related to this topic at all). I hope for your understanding in this specific field.

And I am not trying to downplay the ideas of some people (the development team), just trying to understand why they have been made in such a way.


EDIT: I've also made it my part-time goal to get this problem with my computer fixed so I could try out what is going on if there's some changes made to these things, but it will still be quite a bit of time before anything noteworthy.

[Vaz]

AI struggles with split factions. Not to mention the fact that I occasionally forget to build up half the settlements while they're still split. Having a Third good faction with limited expansion capabilities will only make matters worse, and can draw some major conflicts that have further reaching consequences.

Silvans in Mithlond can't expand further than Kibil Dum, or Michael Delving, causing fractious wars and diversion of troops and funs for other theatres which are the main threat. I've done that a few times in M2TW as crusade targets and then swap them for peace with neighbouring states only to attack when doubly weakened.

In short, my personal thoughts are that changing the Silvans to have 3 separate groups, despite being more settlements, will ruin the balance.

Even if lore might support it, however loosely or strongly, it would break a finely tuned economy and faction relationship setting.

[Makus]

As far as dynamics are concerned, Sindar/silvan elves take mirkwood, Noldor and other likeminded elves have Rivendell and the havens. All good? Considering the mass Noldor migrations to the havens at this time as they prepared to leave middle earth, its plausible that their influence could have put western Sindar cities effectively under their control...or the traditional fantasy dynamic between wood elves/high elves is easier to digest in its current form

[LordHoth]

Hehe. I believe that this 'mass Noldoli migrations' would still be less than some five to ten elves in a year. I mean, we actually *know* of two Noldoli (pure) in the Third Age (Galadriel and Glorfindel). At best, there were a hundred times more (two hundred). I would consider it unlikely to have been a bigger number.

Very well, I can understand that gameplay reason -- I also suppose that the High Elves would be wiped out rather quickly in this case. But, let me think a bit further: By theory alone, it seems likely that the Silvan would become a powerhouse of the North. They would surround both the High Elves *and* Eriador and the Orcs from all sides (sooner or later).

And well, I suppose it is true than in any situation of war, Cirdan would have marched after Elrond. Or, at least, that's how I read it from the books.

[Withwnar]

Maybe I'm missing something but are we confusing Silvans and Sindar here?

In the mod The Havens are Sindar but with Noldor rulership, collectively called High Elves. Silvans have Sindar 'nobility' (hence the Sindar archer general's bodyguard) but they are collectively "Silvan" not "Sindar", so The Havens are not part of their realm.

[LordHoth]

Oh, be damned, you are correct.

How on earth did I confuse the two names?

Still, even though what you say is a hundred million per cents true, the High Elves are still only the Noldoli and Vanyar. As a matter of that definition. But yes, you are absolutely correct.

[Withwnar]

... the High Elves are still only the Noldoli and Vanyar. As a matter of that definition.

Yes. "High Elves" is not correct because Sindar are not High Elves. During development there was talk of what to call this faction. Eldar and Noldor were two other choices. High Elves was deemed to be the least incorrect I think.

There is no canon name for this Western Middle-Earth Elven 'faction'.

[Vaz]

What I was saying would most likely not turn Silvans into a powerhouse. They would now have 5 potential neighbouring enemies rather than 3, and a couple of additional cities economy would not support the forces required to defend them from an AI perspective.

You see the same thing happen in vanilla and several other mods when there is rapid expansion - they implode when they meet solid resistance. Not to mention with the split into 3, you might see a full stack of Silvan Elves walk all the way across Eriador and ignore the Misty mountains or Mordor despite them being a greater threat.

[LordHoth]

Hmmh. These split factions remind me quite a bit of some Rome mods actually. Makedonia in EB, for example: has an island province in Asia Minor, but doesn't do much with it. Nor does it really add to the enemies since it will clash with those same enemies sooner or later anyways. Another one might be EB's Epeiros, which is split in two over a short distance but which never has the sea control to provide support for both. And again, I've never seen them fail all out. Things might be quite a bit different in M2 AI though (can't remember any such examples from M2 atm).