murtha says leave iraq

[1{H][NA]

dem. senator murtha says we should leave iraq. while i agree that the war has been totally mishandled, how many think that this is as genuine effort to try and get toops out? or is it just another political ploy by the dems. to capitalize on the huge anti war sentiment in america?

honestly part of me wants the war to end, but the other part of me thinks that we are "in too deep" to leave now. and i am still a bit skeptial about how well/badly the war is REALLY going, since there are no reliable sources to tell us the situation on the ground.

[ShangTang]

A lot of people think the terrorists will just leave after there are no heathen infidel westerners to fight. But a lot of me doubts that.

[Kanaric]

A lot of people think the terrorists will just leave after there are no heathen infidel westerners to fight. But a lot of me doubts that.

Its POSSIBLE that they will.

Like what republicans say, we fight them there so we dont have to fight them here.

really wish politicians would stop interfering in military matters.

We live in a democracy, politicians exist because the military generally doesn't do what the public would agree with or want done in their name much of the time.

[Carach]

Its POSSIBLE that they will.

Like what republicans say, we fight them there so we dont have to fight them here.


We live in a democracy, politicians exist because the military generally doesn't do what the public would agree with or want done in their name much of the time.

i dont have a problem with them in general, its just when they send in the military to carry out a fight/war whatever, they shouldnt be poking their noses in and telling the military what they should and shouldnt be doing there.

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[Guderian]

I agree you can't just leave now. That would be totally irresponsible, hmm I wouldn't put it past the Bush administration though.

[Erik]

The "Coalition of the Willing" have to finish their job but all other countries can go home.
Let Poland fix it!

[Atheist Peace]

"You forgot Poland"

[RusskiSoldat]

Iraq needs a strongman to build a strong army.
A secular dictatorship is the best one can hope for, for democracy is bound to fail in such an enviroment.

[Farnan]

First Murtha is a congressman. Second, I am ashamed I used to belong to his district. If we withdraw before we get the job done, it makes the soldiers deaths be in vain. We must continue the fight till its done, and not leave one second before.

[Major.Stupidity]

Don't you just love Catch - 22 situations? Apparently the US didn't learn its lesson from Vietnam with not setting a clear end objective. *Sigh*

[leeho730]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't....

[JP226]

Don't you just love Catch - 22 situations? Apparently the US didn't learn its lesson from Vietnam with not setting a clear end objective. *Sigh*

using today's definition of "a clear end objective" we didn't have a clear end objective after ww2 either. SOme how, as crazy as this may be, I think that situation turned out alright.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

using today's definition of "a clear end objective" we didn't have a clear end objective after ww2 either.

You also didn't have an entrenched guerilla insurgency in Germany and Japan two years after WW2 ended. Big difference.

SOme how, as crazy as this may be, I think that situation turned out alright.

Sorry, but that analogy doesn't fly. If fact, its engine caught fire and its wings fell off even as you tried to wheel it out of the hangar.

As for 'damned if you do, damned if you don't', all I can say is (i) precisely and (ii) we told you so back in 2002.

You reap as you sow.

[Atheist Peace]

I'm hesitant to support withdrawal, I never supported the war, but it seems like such a waste to leave when good things could come in the future. What it really comes down to is what would happen if we left, which would probably be a civil war. If nothing too terrible would result, then I think we should begin to leave, but if it will devastate the region even more, we've got to at least try to persist a while longer.

[Justinian]

Going to Iraq in the first place was a showcasing of the incredible idiocy of this administration. Pulling out now would showcase the incredible idiocy of this administration and this whole country.

Only if the government pulls out will the dead soldier's lives really have been thrown away.

[JP226]

You also didn't have an entrenched guerilla insurgency in Germany and Japan two years after WW2 ended. Big difference.

what are you talking about. Nazi guerilla fighters sniped at US troops, assasinated mayors planted car bombs and "IED" for a couple of years AFTER the war. Were they as bad as now? Forgetting the fact that you can or in my case can not trust the edia on this issue, I would say today's case is a little rougher than germany. The reason for that is the allies of ww2 dealed with the problem rather than today's method of giving th problem lawyers. Today we send them to prisons nicer than their caves and torture them by calling them unhappy and putting a sad face over them. We even let women talk to them. Don't believe me? Read the time article on gitmo torture. In germany the allies would simply shoot the insurgents or hang them after tribunals. In the brits case they'd lop the heads off. Much more effective in ending the problem and the war much quicker.

Sorry, but that analogy doesn't fly. If fact, its engine caught fire and its wings fell off even as you tried to wheel it out of the hangar.

maybe that's because you got caught up in your own self righteous feelings in this war. You see this war as soemthing wrong and WW2 as something right? I dunno i'm just guessing. Either way ww2's plan as simply as possible was to win, stabilize, and rebuild them. Our goal in Iraq is the exact same, win, stabilize and rebuild.

hehe Where's the thread to the articles that rush posted? Ayway i don't want to go off topic anymore, that's the last i'm gonna say.

[Rush Limbaugh]

assasinated mayors planted car bombs and "IED" for a couple of years AFTER the war. Were they as bad as now? Forgetting the fact that you can or in my case can not trust the edia on this issue, I would say today's case is a little rougher than germany.

True . Also it took alot longer before Germany had its own constitution. In fact it took a lot longer after the war of independance before we got a constitution ratified. Also if you check te press back then it seem like Deja vu. The were saying the peace has been lost.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

what are you talking about. Nazi guerilla fighters sniped at US troops, assasinated mayors planted car bombs and "IED" for a couple of years AFTER the war.

You’re talking about the ‘Werewolves’? If you want to make a historical analogy, it’s best to get your historical facts straight first.

The ‘Werewolves’ were hastily organized from late 1944 in an attempt at harassing occupying forces in the parts of Germany that had fallen to the Soviets, British and Americans. Their sniping and a few bombings claimed some Allied lives between late 1944 and the German surrender in May 1945. Beyond that, the ‘Werewolves’ fizzled out into a few hardcore Waffen SS fugitives – most of the ones who had been recruited and trained in late 1944 simply gave up the struggle after the surrender. The hold-outs were tiny in number and, from May 1945 to their final total disappearance in 1947, they were little more than a minor irritant which had no tactical effect at all and inflicted zero casualties. Zero.

"The [Germans'] readiness to work with the victors, to carry out their orders, to accept their advice and their help was genuine; of the resistance which the Allies had expected in the way of 'werewolf' units and nocturnal guerrilla activities, there was no sign. …"
(Golo Mann, The History of Germany Since 1789)

Even before the surrender, the ‘Werewolf’ campaign was an abortive disaster:

In the west, the Allies found that Werwolf was a fiasco. Bunkers prepared for Werwolf operations had supplies "for 10-15 days only" and the fanaticism of the Hitler Youth members they captured had entirely disappeared. They were "no more than frightened, unhappy youths." Few resorted to the suicide pills which they had been given "to escape the strain of interrogation and, above all, the inducement to commit treason." Many, when sent off by their controllers to prepare terrorist acts, had sneaked home.
(Antony Beevor, The Fall of Berlin 1945)

So, a few suicides, but no suicide bombs. And, after May 1945, nothing much at all. To even begin to compare this to the insurgency in Iraq is totally ridiculous.

Were they as bad as now? Forgetting the fact that you can or in my case can not trust the edia on this issue, I would say today's case is a little rougher than germany.

A ‘little rougher’?! This is a joke. There are an average of 2.5 bombings per week and 70 attacks on US forces per day. The death rate for US troops last month was 3.3 deaths per day. And this is two years after the ‘end of major combat operations’ with the US and its allies in control of the entire country.

A ‘little rougher’? After the surrender of Germany the 'Werewolves' were a tiny footnote in history and achieved virtually nothing. How on earth can you even begin to compare this to what is happening in Iraq two years on?

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

The reason for that is the allies of ww2 dealed with the problem rather than today's method of giving th problem lawyers. Today we send them to prisons nicer than their caves and torture them by calling them unhappy and putting a sad face over them.

Yes, like the gentle torture that killed Manadel al-Jamadi on November 4 2003:

The prisoner was then taken to a shower room, where his arms were pulled behind his back and shackled to window bars, forcing him to stand erect. Wearing an empty sandbag over his head, he was interrogated by a CIA officer identified in last week's issue of the New Yorker as Mark Swanner, who is not a covert operative. Roughly 90 minutes later, al-Jamadi was dead. One of the MPs who unshackled al-Jamadi's body from the window testified that blood gushed from his mouth and nose like "a faucet had turned on," flowing onto the floor where his hood now lay. The autopsy ruled that al-Jamadi's death was brought on by "blunt-force injuries" and "asphyxiation." Cyril Wecht, coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., and past president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, examined the autopsy report and other records of the investigations and says, "The most likely cause of death was suffocation, which would have occurred when the sandbag was placed over Jamadi's head, as his arms were secured up and behind his back, constricting breathing." Swanner told investigators he did not harm the prisoner.

Sounds a bit like the Gestapo, doesn't it?

[Erik]

Our goal in Iraq is the exact same, win, stabilize and rebuild.

Those were the goals, but there was only a plan for the first and last goal.
They never made a plan for the stabalizing part, and this is where they are failing.