British Rifles vs. light infantry

British Rifles vs. light infantry

Is it just me or do rifles suck? Is it the same for every army's skirmishers? They lack staying power and don't appear to do more damage then lt infantry. Anybody have any suggestions on how to improve their performance?

Right now, I use them in a couple of ways,

1. As lt infantry as part of a double line. After a few volleys I pull them back and use them as flankers. However this is hard to do because if I don't watch closely they either get decimated before I can pull them back or arrive at the flanking position in time to watch the enemy flee.

2. Flankers. As flankers they start on the flanks and fire on the enemy as they pass. Only works if the enemies cavalry is busy doing something else, hopefully dying.

3. Way out in front of the army. Basically as skirmishers, but skirmish doesn't seem to work because they don't retreat once the enemy can fire. This requires a ton of micro and no enemy cavalry.

Does anybody know if skirmish mode works and if it does how it works? Also, I will take any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong with them as they rarely seem to survive a battle.

Moved to Gameplay and Strategy Discussion.

Originally Posted by cmdrnarrain

3. Way out in front of the army. Basically as skirmishers, but skirmish doesn't seem to work because they don't retreat once the enemy can fire. This requires a ton of micro and no enemy cavalry.

Does anybody know if skirmish mode works and if it does how it works? Also, I will take any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong with them as they rarely seem to survive a battle.

Skirmish mode only kicks in when you get charged for melee.
The advantages of rifles over light inf are a) the higher range and b) that they can plant stakes (which most lights can't).
Light infantry will win a shootout against them if they get into range.

I take very few rifles myself, at most one per army in GC, usually none at all in MP.

Charged in melee?!? They can't out run horses.

Ok, CA next update why not change skirmish so that extra range and half is useful by having them run away once the enemy gets in range. Otherwise rifles are just plain dumb and well... a big disappointment for what it takes to research them.

Originally Posted by cmdrnarrain

Charged in melee?!? They can't out run horses.

Charged by infantry.
Against horses, you use stakes.

EDIT:
And you shouldn't let them stray too far from your main line anyway so you can support them.

Charged by infantry in front of my gun line? Why would I want them to run away? Like I said they can't out run horses, so fleeing from melee units sounds kinda dumb.

Originally Posted by cmdrnarrain

Charged by infantry in front of my gun line? Why would I want them to run away? Like I said they can't out run horses, so fleeing from melee units sounds kinda dumb.

And like he said, you should keep your rifles, indeed any small units close to the main body of your army so they don't have to run far to get out of a sticky situation. Also, like he said. 1-2 units of rifles is more than enough for a whole stack in single player. You have to remember these soldiers are intended to harass, not destroy. I think perhaps watching too much Sharpe?



If you are imagining massed rifle volleys wiping regiment after regiment off the battlefield, I recommend playing as Prussia and building up large ambush armies. An ambush army (in SMIDSY's Big Book of Pretend War) is a 2/3 full stack with no general, all rifles, with a couple units of hussars to chase down fleeing soldiers.to send into enemy territory. That way, you can wait until you have a clear advantage, surround them rapidly without them having time to properly deploy into line, and pour lead into them until none are left.


Remember, rifles an hussars can hide in the open on the GC map, so drop them somewhere in a grassland to give clear fields of fire.

Originally Posted by cmdrnarrain

Charged by infantry in front of my gun line? Why would I want them to run away? Like I said they can't out run horses, so fleeing from melee units sounds kinda dumb.

So let me get this straight, you do want them to run away but not from infantry, and not from cavalry either, so you want them to run from artillery I take it. Sounds kinda dumb.

Not sure what Sharpe is, but I don't watch it. I only use 2-3 units and was just trying to figure out if I was missing something in their use. So far they just plain suck, but maybe I missed something.

Yes stakes, but AI cavlary isn't a problem and humans just ride around or over them and take the 5-6 casualties.

I'm starting to think the unit is more for fun then being useful. Now if they skirmished against shooting I think they would have a ton of value and could be easily supported by your own cavlary without having to mirco both.

I think the problem is you expect them to be an all-defeating force that will replace your light infantry companies or line battalions. They won't. They are more of a skirmishing force to engage other skirmishers at a longer distance than the enemy can hit you at. Rockets can be used in a similar way, but obviously less accurate fire, it just adds more ground on the battlefield where the enemy is being killed.



And like I said, try ambushing, it is very satisfying and I believe it will make you like riflemen more.



PS
@ daniu, Never try to swap volleys with a battery of artillery, you will take disproportionate casualties.

Originally Posted by SMIDSY

@ daniu, Never try to swap volleys with a battery of artillery, you will take disproportionate casualties.

No, daniu is right. Rifles have a range of 125, which is just outside the 120 canister range of howitzers and 6lb cannon (canister will not cause casualties outside its listed range), making rifles an excellent way of eliminating those artillery pieces. Even heavier cannon with long range canister shot can't rout a rifle unit before it can get into range, and with 80 accuracy one volley from a rifle unit can easily be the end of an artillery battery.

@cmdrnarrain
One thing to keep in mind about rifles, is that they take twice as long as a musket to reload. This is why they lose in a shoot out to just about any other infantry unit. However, with 125 range, your rifles should not be getting into a shoot out with anyone but other rifles. If your rifles are shooting it out with enemy light/line infantry, you have done something wrong. Use your range to force the enemy to move forward, when they do, pull back towards your own supporting light/line infantry. If the enemy has no rifles of their own, they have no choice but to keep pressing forward, right into your main line.

Originally Posted by Keiichi

No, daniu is right. Rifles have a range of 125, which is just outside the 120 canister range of howitzers and 6lb cannon (canister will not cause casualties outside its listed range), making rifles an excellent way of eliminating those artillery pieces. Even heavier cannon with long range canister shot can't rout a rifle unit before it can get into range, and with 80 accuracy one volley from a rifle unit can easily be the end of an artillery battery.

Dang, got reality confused with a Total War game again

No, the skirmish function really is mostly useless.
Worse than rifles not skirmishing away from missile fire, when ordered to plant stakes while on skirmish, if the enemy cav comes too near,
the men will abort planting the stakes that would ultimately save them

Just thought of a good use for rifles though: they easily take out enemy artillery with minimal if any casualties from cannister shot.

The skirmish function is bugged. Your rifles will keep running away when enemy line approaches, but when the enemy stops and shot they will not return fire and exposed their rear.

Skirmish mod just....SUCKS.My rifles are turning away from the nearest enemy troops and stop there,remaining with they rear/flank expozed

Originally Posted by daNY15

Skirmish mod just....SUCKS.My rifles are turning away from the nearest enemy troops and stop there,remaining with they rear/flank expozed

I don't think it's a bug though.
As I said, I don't put rifles into skirmish mode anymore (so I'll be able to time my stakes), but light infantry I do.
I have them very close to my line, so if the skirmish retreat kicks in, they move behind it; by not turning again, they don't cause friendly fire.

I rarely take a large core of rifles. There are not many of them per unit (60 compared to 90 per light reg), they have longer reload (55 for the British (wth? The great rifle bullets weren't designed yet, right?) but with a slower base reload)), and are more expensive. If you're Prussia, with the best lights of the majors (55/60), there's no reason to take it. Even for the Brits, (50/55) it's not worth it. Think about it. If you double up on one unit of lights, it's 120 vs. 90. If he doubles up on you, it's 180 vs. 120. I mean, wow, it can absolutely destroy a rifle in relative no time.

I usually take one with five lights. The reason for this is to force my opponent's hand in the skirm battle, snipe important targets (generals, if too far out, artillery, as stated by daniu), and plant stakes (to create a shield/stop cav). Anything more is a waste of resources, IMHO.

Rifles are not as effective as the ETW version now (I miss the Windbusche and Fergusons.... the NTW Windbusche is basically an overpriced unit), but one or two of them can force the enemy who had no 125-range units to attack you (especially the French, Spanish, and Russians), after they get in range your light infantry will pour another devastating volley.
So basically 1 or 2 rifle +3 or 4 lights are the best composition in MP for me (in SP you can win with any combination) especially against the non-125 factions.
The principle is: 'Harass with rifles, kill with lights.'

Thanks, this is what I wanted to know.

1. Skirmish doesn't work
2. Rifles aren't very useful

Actually, I tried shooting human control artillery with rifles. It doesn't work as they take to long to shoot down the crew. Sooner or late an infantry battalion will march up and chases off the rifles. If you try to support the rifles the cannons blast the support units.

I was just a little disappointed in their performance given how long it takes to research them.

Does anybody know if the command squad (stand bearer, drummer, etc.) has any impact on the unit’s morale? If they do, maybe the rifles are shooting them to reduce the unit’s morale? It’s reach however.

It's a reach >_>