Is there anything wrong with hiring illegal immigrants?

[magickyleo101]

Assuming for the sake of discussion that's it's illegal to hire illegal immigrants where you live, is there anything (morally) wrong with breaking that law by hiring them? To make the example clear, say I want to hire a guy I know to be an illegal immigrant to do some yard work for me. I'm going to give him $100 dollars and it's going to take him about 10 hours. The working conditions aren't dangerous.

I can only see two real arguments for saying that the illegal immigrant shouldn't be hired: (1) that it's illegal to do so and that I have some kind of freestanding moral obligation to obey the law; and (2) that hiring illegal immigrants creates some kind of to other workers.

I don't find the first argument terribly compelling since there are lots of law people don't have moral qualms about breaking. For example, most people don't think you have a moral obligation not to jay-walk on an empty street. The mere fact that it's a technical violation of the law to jay-walk doesn't make it immoral to do so, so it's unlikely that the technical illegality of hiring an undocumented worker could alone make it immoral to do so.

As for the claim that it hurts other workers, I don't really think there's any sense in which American workers have a claim to be hired instead of undocumented workers. Simply being born here doesn't give you special moral rights to a job that a person born in Mexico doesn't have. If the person from Mexico will work harder or for less, they have a greater claim to the job than you do.

Anyways, thoughts?

[Phier]

If we lived in a truly free market no, but we don't.

When I hire and employee for anything, I'm not only paying their wage, but their social security tax, unemployment tax, health care, etc.

If I hire an illegal, I'm paying them under the table.

Hiring the illegal means I can either make more, or charge less, bringing about unfair competition to those who hire legally.

They in turn are forced to use illegal workers as well, lower their margins, or outright fail.

So when you want to go all libertarian, give me a ring, but as long as government regulation is involved illegals create unfair business environments.

[razor-]

When I hire and employee for anything, I'm not only paying their wage, but their social security tax, unemployment tax, health care, etc.

Do you have to pay your workers all that? I mean is it in the law? Just curious.

[magickyleo101]

@ Phier: I understand the tax argument you're making, and I think that's generally a pretty reasonable argument. However, where (as here) we're talking about something like paying a guy $100 to do some yard work, taxes aren't really an issue. Regardless of whether the person hired is a citizen or not, the payment isn't likely to be declared, so there's no real difference there in terms of the immigration status of the hire.

@ razor- you have to pay them minimum wage (about $7.50, I think).

[chamaeleo]

It is only wrong to hire illegals AND support anti-immigration legislation. Sad really, how the anti-crowd's politicians appease them with a few quick barbs...but when push comes to shove, act as if their hands were tied. Just like they'd been paid to do by those industries which employ illegals by the millions. At least Reagan wasn't afraid to show us his true allegiance (to industry lobbyists) with his amnesty. Hell, even Bush Jr tried the reform-lite approach (guest-workers, penalties for illegal employers)...which was squashed by his very own party!

Tea partiers should mistrust the GOP. It's been selling out our country to employers of cheap labor for years.

[Phier]

Tea partiers should mistrust the GOP. It's been selling out our country to employers of cheap labor for years.

Umm, they do.

http://reason.com/blog/2010/04/19/bl...-protesters-vs

Second video on page.

[chamaeleo]

Umm, they do.

http://reason.com/blog/2010/04/19/bl...-protesters-vs

Second video on page.

I know, I had meant to italicize the word "should" for emphasis.

I guess my biggest beef is that everyone treats the "illegal problem" like it's totally new. There always has been a demand for cheap labor in the US. This country was built on it! I suppose the real question is: who should fill this niche, applying a bit of job competition back pressure to counter immigrants?

High schoolers? Maybe institute Spanish "field classes" where students visit the local farms for some immersive language training...

Low-risk inmates? Send prisoners busted for pot to the fields, to clear up ditch-weed and maybe learn a few things about horticulture?

Unemployed? Perhaps give folks 3-6 mo to find another job, then require 10-20 hrs / week of service through a temp agency?

Homeless people?

Guest workers?

The only way to curb the "problem" is to fill this labor demand which they currently monopolize (thanks to certain industry standard practices), and I don't see anyone doing anything on that end. Virtually every ethnicity in the US, at some point in history, has been the Low-Man on the socioeconomic ladder. Maybe instead of demonizing the people who essentially form the base of our economy, they should be formally recognized on some level? Given official guest-status...taxed, represented, and monitored?

Such a program should be subsidized by those industries which employ them...who themselves are, coincidentally, already heavily subsidized by our taxes!

[Armenum]

If I'm a business owner, hiring illegals to do manual labour is a much more attractive option than hiring natives since the illegals will work for less pay and work longer hours. But when looking at it in a non-business perspective of course it's more fair for the citizens who are vying for the same job to get the job over illegals.

[Denny Crane!]

Well in the UK the market would probably collapse without it, the market is huge and vital to the lives of so many not just illegal immigrants. Most traders, the vast majority operate huge portions of their business off the books.

Absolutely not a problem.

[xcorps]

(1) that it's illegal to do so and that I have some kind of freestanding moral obligation to obey the law

That's about it. Unless you're above the law. Which you aren't.

[Kjertesvein]

Since the state don't have monopol on our moral view on life, I don't consider it morally what you want to choose.

Since it's law by the state, then it's expected that some think the state does have monopol on moral view-points, and will act appealing to your disregard for the law, regarless of their moral-view-point relating to the hiring of manpower. This can easily be shown in Oslo, Norway recently with a case relating to law and prostitution. There were no law for prostitution (only pimping and trafficing), but then one day the government decided to make a new law to prohibit it. Norwegian prostitutes moved away from the harbour streets, and now usually make their work in a hidden housecomplex, under a "nice landlord". The street market were open, and Nigerian whores flooded the main streets with the help of trafficers, whih push them to desperation. Prostitution is an even bigger problem now: For the previews street-prostitutes, nigerian prostitutes and the commen man (trying to) walking the streets. The final point, and the most importent is that the views (from polls) on prostitution have become very negative towards it just after the law was enforced.

Since you are asking a moral question - I would suggest the moving of this thread to Ethos, Mores et Monastica, that is unless you don't mind the religious folks commenting some theist quotes now and then...

~Wille

[Gelgoog]

Hiring illegals is a systematic fail all around.

Not only is it bad for the economy since the amount they save us in cheap labor is way offset by the amount of social services they use. They do not pay taxes so those social services they use ( like schooling and hospitals) are paid for by the rest of us increasing our tax burden. They also send a large amount of their money back to their homeland which means that non taxed money isnt even being used to help our economy.

Hiring illegals destroys wealth in this country, because it exports it.

It is also bad for the illegal worker because he is subject to abuse by his employer that a legal worker would be protected under the law against. An illegal worker can't sue his employer if he doesnt get paid for the work he does.

So ya, there are alot of things wrong with hiring illegal workers. That cheap labor comes at a huge cost to the worker, to the state and to all of us who pay taxes. It is also a kick in balls to all those immigrants and migrant workers who go through the proper channels to work and live in this country.

As far as I am concerned, if you are hiring illegal workers, you are supporting drug trafficking, murderous drug cartels, rape and slavery. If there is no incentive to break the law and flood into this country then there is no infrastructure to support all those horrible things.

[Theseus1234]

Hiring illegals is a systematic fail all around.

Not only is it bad for the economy since the amount they save us in cheap labor is way offset by the amount of social services they use. They do not pay taxes so those social services they use ( like schooling and hospitals) are paid for by the rest of us increasing our tax burden. They also send a large amount of their money back to their homeland which means that non taxed money isnt even being used to help our economy.

That's not entirely true. While they do use social services, they have an enormous ($7 billion) reserve in an untapped social security file. Also, some do go out of their way to file income taxes and not all the money is sent back to Mexico. Food, rent, and other amenities are necessities that money must be spent on.

Yes because it would attract even more illegal immigrants.

Basically my view, in addition to its immorality (undermining fair wages, breaking a reasonable law, etc. etc.)

[Hounf of Culan]

That's not entirely true. While they do use social services, they have an enormous ($7 billion) reserve in an untapped social security file. Also, some do go out of their way to file income taxes and not all the money is sent back to Mexico. Food, rent, and other amenities are necessities that money must be spent on.



Basically my view, in addition to its immorality (undermining fair wages, breaking a reasonable law, etc. etc.)

Actually the majority of them do send it back to Mexico: from wiki

The continuing practice of hiring unauthorized workers has been referred to as “the magnet for illegal immigration.”[28] As a significant percentage of employers are willing to hire illegal immigrants for higher pay than they would typically receive in their former country, illegal immigrants have prime motivation to cross borders.
In 2003, then-President of Mexico, Vicente Fox stated that remittances "are our biggest source of foreign income, bigger than oil, tourism or foreign investment" and that "the money transfers grew after Mexican consulates started giving identity cards to their citizens in the United States." He stated that money sent from Mexican workers in the United States to their families back home reached a record $12 billion.[29] Two years later, in 2005, the World Bank stated that Mexico was receiving $18.1 billion in remittances and that it ranked third (behind only India and China) among the countries receiving the greatest amount of remittances.

I really have no problem if some poor Mexican wants to emigrate to the US and permanently live here in the hopes of a better life, eventually becoming a citizen or something. However, I do take issue with those who come here simply to send money back to Mexico, or whatever country they are from.

[The spartan]

Hiring illegals is a systematic fail all around.

Not only is it bad for the economy since the amount they save us in cheap labor is way offset by the amount of social services they use. They do not pay taxes so those social services they use ( like schooling and hospitals) are paid for by the rest of us increasing our tax burden. They also send a large amount of their money back to their homeland which means that non taxed money isnt even being used to help our economy.

Hiring illegals destroys wealth in this country, because it exports it.

It is also bad for the illegal worker because he is subject to abuse by his employer that a legal worker would be protected under the law against. An illegal worker can't sue his employer if he doesnt get paid for the work he does.

So ya, there are alot of things wrong with hiring illegal workers. That cheap labor comes at a huge cost to the worker, to the state and to all of us who pay taxes. It is also a kick in balls to all those immigrants and migrant workers who go through the proper channels to work and live in this country.

As far as I am concerned, if you are hiring illegal workers, you are supporting drug trafficking, murderous drug cartels, rape and slavery. If there is no incentive to break the law and flood into this country then there is no infrastructure to support all those horrible things.

This. And, as Pheir said, if the the market was truly free, then ya. But since we have social services to pay out (and pay for), then no.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Assuming for the sake of discussion that's it's illegal to hire illegal immigrants where you live, is there anything (morally) wrong with breaking that law by hiring them? To make the example clear, say I want to hire a guy I know to be an illegal immigrant to do some yard work for me. I'm going to give him $100 dollars and it's going to take him about 10 hours. The working conditions aren't dangerous.

I can only see two real arguments for saying that the illegal immigrant shouldn't be hired: (1) that it's illegal to do so and that I have some kind of freestanding moral obligation to obey the law; and (2) that hiring illegal immigrants creates some kind of to other workers.

I don't find the first argument terribly compelling since there are lots of law people don't have moral qualms about breaking. For example, most people don't think you have a moral obligation not to jay-walk on an empty street. The mere fact that it's a technical violation of the law to jay-walk doesn't make it immoral to do so, so it's unlikely that the technical illegality of hiring an undocumented worker could alone make it immoral to do so.

As for the claim that it hurts other workers, I don't really think there's any sense in which American workers have a claim to be hired instead of undocumented workers. Simply being born here doesn't give you special moral rights to a job that a person born in Mexico doesn't have. If the person from Mexico will work harder or for less, they have a greater claim to the job than you do.

Anyways, thoughts?

I think it is immoral. If you're employing illegal immigrants you are more a criminal than they are, in my opinion. You're paying somebody at below legal wage, sabotaging the chances of others who obey the law and contribute to the situation where people take absurd risks to enter the country, with some dying en route.

[Denny Crane!]

I think it is immoral. If you're employing illegal immigrants you are more a criminal than they are, in my opinion. You're paying somebody at below legal wage, sabotaging the chances of others who obey the law and contribute to the situation where people take absurd risks to enter the country, with some dying en route.

You aren't contributing to the situation where people take absurd risks to enter the country. That is something that will happen anyway since it isn't really communicated to the groups who are desperate to enter here that people aren't hiring them. They are willing to take a chance regardless because they face abject poverty where they are. If you tell a prospective illegal immigrant that there is no work in the UK at all and people won't hire illegal immigrants there they will still try it, because better to face abject poverty here than where they are.

Furthermore I don't accept the validity of the minimum wage, its crap according to any respectable economist I've come across so I don't think it is immoral to pay less than minimum wage, minimum wage is immoral as it makes the job market worse.

[Treize]

Yes because it would attract even more illegal immigrants.

[Basil II the B.S]

Yes it is. If you want to employ a foreign person, nobody is preventing you from doing that, you just have to follow certain rules. Since it's rational to hire a person for the minimum legal pay and not more, if you hire an immigrant because you can pay him less, then you are paying him below the minimum legal wage for any worker , whether it is foreign or not, thus creating unfair competition.
You have also to remember that if you do so, and you remain unpunished, everybody will, creating massive unemployment, therefore you are hurting your country.
And when the random ''they took ouah jobz'' party rises in numbers thanks to uneployed people and comes for your ass, guess who's to blaim?

[Stavroforos]

I think it depends on the context.

Say I pay an illegal immigrant an amount of money we've both agreed to for doing some manual labor for me. Nothing extreme or dangerous, just maybe carrying stuff around, fixing up my garden, etc. It is wrong in this case simply because the person is there illegally and you are rewarding them with work and income despite their being entitled to either. However, in such a case where there is no abuse, and there is no encroachment on the job market, I would hardly consider it a bad thing.

Say I on the other hand own a diner which is basically run by illegals, I give them terrible work hours (say 14-18 hours a day), I provide bad working conditions for them, and in the case that I house them (as is common in many diners) that their housing is extremely poor, then yes, it is immoral by virtue of how you're treating these people.

Finally, there is the case where you hire them because they are cheap labor, meaning that otherwise you'd have to pay an American a proper wage with benefits and all that. It is immoral in this case as you are giving the illegal immigrant a job that could be going to an American (or whatever country you live), and by employing this person, regardless of how they are treated and how they are paid, you are doing harm to your community and your nation.

Also, I guess a reason why it is wrong across the board is because in every case you are encouraging further illegal immigration by showing that citizens are willing to hire illegals for whatever task, so long as they come cheap. This is not however I believe an immoral wrong.