A question on lore implementation

[gapper4]

A previous thread I wrote got me thinking. I had originally asked why Elves didn't have access to assassins and was told it was due to the lore, to the fact that Elves simply wouldn't use assasins due to their nature. Fair enough, I accept that, even though it's extremely annoying to have someone assasinated and not being able to do anything about it.

However, in the same vein, why would Elves get any kind of negative trait or a drop in their diplomatic relations with other "good" factions when they slaughter Orcs after a battle ? It's widely accepted that Elves killed Orcs wherever they found them. That's just what they did. The idea of releasing or ransoming them would never occur to them. I know there are some constraints due to game mechanics but would it be possible to eliminate the acquisition of bad traits and/or drops in diplomatic standing when Elves (or pretty much any good faction) slaughters Orcs ? In fact, the release/ransom/kill option should perhaps only appear when good is fighting good or evil is fighting evil.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Actually, the elves' philosophy requires them to show mercy even to orcs.

But the simplest answer is that this is a game and the game hasn't read the books and doesn't know that some of the things it does contradict the lore and its human masters haven't yet taught it the error of its ways.

[opag78]

It is not in the nature of Elves to slaughter unarmed prisoners, whether they are Orcs or not. They certainly did not release them, but they put them into prison (see Gollum). Nevertheless it is also in the nature of arrows that you can't surrender to arrows especially when you can't see the archers. Therefore the Elves normally won't have many prisoners.

[Hallow]

Actually, the elves' philosophy requires them to show mercy even to orcs.

But the simplest answer is that this is a game and the game hasn't read the books and doesn't know that some of the things it does contradict the lore and its human masters haven't yet taught it the error of its ways.

I disagree. I can't think of a single instance where Elves offered Orcs or any of the other abominations made by Morgoth any mercy at all. Then again I might have forgotten something.

[gapper4]

I disagree. I can't think of a single instance where Elves offered Orcs or any of the other abominations made by Morgoth any mercy at all. Then again I might have forgotten something.

That was my impression also. Elves killed anything made by Morgoth or Sauron. Heck, men and Dwarves also killed anything made by Morgoth and Sauron.

[Hallow]

That was my impression also. Elves killed anything made by Morgoth or Sauron. Heck, men and Dwarves also killed anything made by Morgoth and Sauron.

For good reason too. In their mind, the orcs (and the other abominations) were creatures of pure evil who, if released, would only go on to rampage and murder more innocents.

[Jean=A=Luc]

For good reason too. In their mind, the orcs (and the other abominations) were creatures of pure evil who, if released, would only go on to rampage and murder more innocents.

Did you all miss my post or what? It's only a few mouse-wheel turns above.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...53#post7773153

[Fishy]

I agree with Gapper4 here, it's incredibly annoying capturing more then 2000 Orcs during a battle and having to release them in order to avoid negative traits. Normally the Elves would just hunt them down and not go through the trouble of taking prisoners. Too much work, killing is easier. But I just cheat away the bad traits in situations like that.

[Incontinenta Buttox]

In Lore,

Elves would never even take Orcs prisoner, and Orcs would never surrender.

I had the impression that thare was some sort of submod that dealt with this issue.

[Fishy]

There is a submod for 1.4 that prevents negative traits from being assigned to the hero units (Gandalf, Faramir, Aragorn etc.) and all elves. From as far as I know it has not yet been updated to 2.0.

[gapper4]

There is a submod for 1.4 that prevents negative traits from being assigned to the hero units (Gandalf, Faramir, Aragorn etc.) and all elves. From as far as I know it has not yet been updated to 2.0.

Ah, great ! Any idea what the mod is called ? I'll keep my eyes open for an update.

For the record, I still slaughter Orcs after a battle as HE, bad traits or not. The Eldar don't really care what others think of them

[Fishy]

Ah, great ! Any idea what the mod is called ? I'll keep my eyes open for an update.

For the record, I still slaughter Orcs after a battle as HE, bad traits or not. The Eldar don't really care what others think of them

Eldar? You wish...

No idea what it's called, probably something like "No bad traits for good characters". It's also in RR+RC. Which is what I would recommend you to download if you still play 1.4... Technically it wouldn't be impossible to create yourselves, I think it would require you to just create one custom trait with all evil traits as an anti-trait... Still if you have access to the console using the remove_trait cheat also works. Bit more work, but I use it myself. I just can't stand to see Gandalf the Tyrant or Aragorn the Cruel running around in the world.

[gapper4]

I'm afraid I don't have the kind of skills required to tinker with edits. I'll download RR+RC when a version for 2.01 comes out. I have one of my Elves called "Emerion the Fat", FFS !

[slowbro]

painting the elves as snow white is reeeeaaallly stretching the lore.

[Gharbad the Weak]

I agree on the part of diplomacy, but I think elves should be able to get bad traits. They where elves, not angels. They have their own parts of dark history to prove that they aren't perfect, the Kinslaying for example.

[Fishy]

I agree on the part of diplomacy, but I think elves should be able to get bad traits. They where elves, not angels. They have their own parts of dark history to prove that they aren't perfect, the Kinslaying for example.

Yes but elves usually weren't raping drunk idiots that enjoyed torture. They were a noble and fair people or at least they are constantly described as such. Of course they were capable of mistakes, jealousy envy hatred arrogance and even sometimes murder...

But I don't see why Elves or people like Gandalf and Aragorn should get trais like Lazy, stupid, Enjoys blood... and more things like that. It just doesn't make sense. When I look at my campaign before I started removing traits Gandalf was a Lazy idiotic person who quite enjoyed slaughtering his enemies. Aragorn was about as dreaded throughout the nation and completely unjust...

it makes no sense for those people to be like that. Still it's quite easy to stop.. So not that big a problem for me at the moment.

[opag78]

Regarding negative traits for elves

I do understand exactly what you are talking about about.

In my current campaign (Sindar Elves) , Thrandul has 2 sons and 1 son-in-law.

While he is Thrandul the Watcher (not a great name, but .. ok) his offspring are .. Nestarion the Mean, Erynion the Mad and ... Legolas the Cruel !?!

What a fine family I am seriously thinking about giving the position of faction heir to one his many grandsons, whoever turns out to be .. normal.

And I swear that I never slaughtered any prisoners or even just looted a settlement (except 1-2 in the Misty Mountains and in Isengard and this was not even under the command of any of these)

Nestarion and Erynion were actually always governors (Thranduils Halls and Ost-in-Edil) and have never seen battle except once when Nestarion successfully defended Thranduils Halls with 1000 elves against 4000 Orcs ...

But still it is fine to have negative traits for them as it adds to the flavour. I mean we are all just huma.. ehh elves and as I said hopefully Thranduil will stay alive long enough to see one of his grandsons to be emerging as a new worthy successor. I do have some hope in one the sons of legolas who just successfully liberated Fangorn and Isengard from the evil powers (with the help of the Ents of course).

[gapper4]

Regarding negative traits for elves

I do understand exactly what you are talking about about.

In my current campaign (Sindar Elves) , Thrandul has 2 sons and 1 son-in-law.

While he is Thrandul the Watcher (not a great name, but .. ok) his offspring are .. Nestarion the Mean, Erynion the Mad and ... Legolas the Cruel !?!

What a fine family I am seriously thinking about giving the position of faction heir to one his many grandsons, whoever turns out to be .. normal.

And I swear that I never slaughtered any prisoners or even sacked a settlement (except 1-2 in the Misty Mountains and in Isengard and this was not even under the command of any of these)

Nestarion and Erynion were actually always governors (Thranduils Halls and Ost-in-Edil) and have never seen battle except once when Nestarion defended with 1000 elves against 4000 Orcs ...

But still it is fine to have negative traits for them as it adds to the flavour. I mean we are all just huma.. ehh elves and as I said hopefully Thranduil will stay alive long enough to see one of his grandsons to be emerging as a new worthy successor. I do have some hope in one the sons of legolas who just successfully liberated Fangorn and Isengard from the evil powers.

Ah, Legolas finally got married ? About time. I was starting to wonder about him.

[slowbro]

Yes but elves usually weren't raping drunk idiots that enjoyed torture

who were they raping then?

[Fishy]

who were they raping then?

Generalization of evil things done during war... Which the elves didn't for as far as I know.