Were the Normans French?

[RomanSoldier9001]

There is being quite an "historical" discussion about the fact of the Normans being "French" since they brough the "french" culture and language to England that changed the scandanivian and germanic culture and languages that England had experience since the Migration Period .

Normans are more or less portraitd as French since of course Anglo Saxons are the "Tragic Heroic People" as Normans the "the evil orks" and of course part of tradional enemy of England France ironical enought that the tradional English-French Rivalary didnt existed before the Norman Conquest since it because of the Normans that rivalary was created since Normandy already wage several wars with France with conquest of England and rise of rise of Angevids to power that compete in France with House of Capet ; this brough the series of wars that England and France had.


So trully are Normans french? Apart from this I find several reasons why they shoulnt be considered French:
The fact that in this time there was hardly a "French identy" and the nature of French people itself is compex, the Gascons ,the Bretons,the Catalans,The Basque,The Flemish never consider themselfs French there was hardly anyone outside the French Kingmon Royal domains that in what is now France consider themselfs French and not to mention of course the Normans. Another thing particular is the nature of French as people contrary to other european peoples like for example the English the French never had a just one people there was never a French People so to speak but more a various group of peoples under the Isle of France Goverment that have been along history enduring a "Francization ".

Another reason is Normans themselfs a people that never consider themselfs French .
They are descends of Viking raiders of France that settled in Normandy after a "deal" with Kingdmon of France since that time the "settlers" intermarried and incorporated customs,language of local Frankish people but they never lost their identy as people true they were mixture but they were still a people.

Politicaly the Duchy of Normandy was subornited to Kingdmon of France but in pratice it was pretty much independent they wage their own wars (against Brittany for example) and even against their suposed "masters" the Kingdmon of France various times they had their own Law and Soberany.

Linguistically they had their own language the Old Norman that had more than 1000 words of Nordic origin altough was part of langues d'oïl group.

[EmperorBatman999]

I'd say they're more Nordic than French.

[Kjertesvein]

When English people say "Norman", then it sound identical to when Norwegians say (a) "Norwegian(-man)" in Norwegian language. As to your question, then I really have no idea, but I belive I have overlooked this before, where it was stated that Normans were a mix of French, locals and Scandinavians. I presume Scandinavian influence dissapeared as time went on by French influence. However- Don't quote me on it.

~Wille

[hellheaven1987]

It really depends which regions and when. Clearly, the longer the Norman stayed in one region, the close they were adopted the local culture and less like Norse.

Overall, it is just like Rus.

[Junius]

You are right in saying that there was no distinct French identity at this time. Many people did not travel far from their birthplace and it was their local potentate to whom they owed allegiance. You were of a manor born, and that would be to what you would associate yourself with. Before Abbot Suger and the two Louises, when we begin to see a powerful French king begin to exert his authority outside of the Ile de France, there was no sense of a unified France. The dukes were always more powerful than the king in their areas and could act with impunity. The Treaty of Verdun is often seen as the birth of modern France, though that is a label put on it by later historians.

Also, it was only really the aristocracy which changed in Normandy. The upper layers of society there were certainly Nordic in origin, that persists in their name (Norman = Norse-men), but the larger peasant population remained local. The same happened after the Norman invasion of England, it was only the Anglo-Saxon aristocrats who were replaced by Normans, the peasants remained English.

There is documentary evidence supporting this. Rollo signed the Treaty of Saint Clair-sur-Epte with Charles III in 911 granting him what came to be called Normandy as a fief. The reasons were political and military and not important to the current discussion.

So, in brief answer to your questions, the aristocratic Normans certainly were descended from Vikings. The peasant population remained 'French' though there was no real French identity at the time.

[RomanSoldier9001]

So, in brief answer to your questions, the aristocratic Normans certainly were descended from Vikings. The peasant population remained 'French' though there was no real French identity at the time.

I would say then they remained Frank .

[Roloc]

Normans were able to conquer and fight, something the French weren't able to. That means, that the Normans were not French.

[Nik]

I'm no expert on the norman society nor on th early french cultural or national development, but have to critisize certain points of your argument.

that the tradional English-French Rivalary didnt existed before the Norman Conquest since it because of the Normans that rivalary was created since Normandy already wage several wars with France with conquest of England and rise of rise of Angevids to power that compete in France with House of Capet ; this brough the series of wars that England and France had.

Sorry, what is your statement here?

The fact that in this time there was hardly a "French identy" and the nature of French people itself is compex, the Gascons ,the Bretons,the Catalans,The Basque,The Flemish never consider themselfs French

Congratulation, with the exception of the corsicans and the Alsatians you brought up everyone who really has a distinct culture (even nowadays) than the french mainstream. Many of these regions (the proto-celtic basques and the navarese catalans) joined the french royal domains relatively late, while flandres and lorraine where the frontier to the east-frankish/german empire, and switched allegiances relatively often. Historically, those regions spoke dialects belonging to the Langue d'oc and Langue d'oeil group, with the important word being "dialect", as opposed "language"
But the core of the franko-roman domains (the countless duchies like anjou, blois, acquitaine, provence etc) had closer cultural links (related dialects, a history of common royal house) than the collection of odd cases you provide in your opening statement.

The question first and foremost has to be what the Identity of "France" was back at that time.
It surely wasn't the same as todays unified, centralized France, but given that French Kings from preceding dynasties (merowingian and carolingian) had before governed over larger areas than just the Ile de france, and the region had to similar culturual influences (frankish and gallo-roman), certain parelles indeed seem possible.
A quick wikisearch gives the following:
Provinces_of_France
Terretorial Formation

They are descends of Viking raiders of France that settled in Normandy after a "deal" with Kingdmon of France since that time the "settlers" intermarried and incorporated customs,language of local Frankish people but they never lost their identy as people true they were mixture but they were still a people.

This is your opinion, but we also have the fact that french became the language of the ruling class in England. Given your logic, the nobility in England should have been talking some kind of norwegian dialect, not and old french dialect.
Again, a quick wikisearch:
Normans in General
Norman Law
Norman Language
The norman culture certainly differed from the frankish, using an amount of norse vocabulary and probably also having differing legal and feudal nuances, but at which point was that diluted down to a point where the normans indeed become french? I'm not savy enough in the details of internal french cultural development to answer that, but the fact that the normans cease to be a power factor with the end of the angevin empire, their identity surely did not hold for long.

@Roloc
Your country stinks.

[Manco]

I'd say they're more Nordic than French.

After 4 generations intermarrying with the local nobles, you can hardly call William the Conqueror and his contemporaries Nordic.

[CiviC]

A French ethnicity existed in the times of Norman Conquest of England. It comprises the people of Northern France speaking langues d'oil, as the first most important element that defines ethnicity is language. Overall those peoples had also a common origin - Gallo-Roman (another element that generally defines ethnicity).



The lower classes of Normandy were always of French ethnicity, speaking a dialect of Old French and being of Gallo-Roman ancestry. When Vikings came they were like a superficial layer of population constituting the upper ruling class, like in the case of Franks centuries earlier. But as Franks were eventually assimilated into the Gallo-Roman population, the same happened with the Vikings. They intermarried with French locals, adopted the language and customs and religion, so by assimilation and disolution of their Nordic ethnicity they were effectively of French ethnicity by the time of William the Conqueror. They brought French culture (language, customs) in England, not Norman. Of course back then ethnicity had no political meaning as nations didn't existed back then, so no matter the ethnicity they had no loyalty to a country or people, but they were loyal to their suzerain and their own interests of course.

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Well.. The french called them Normans from Norway,the English called them Normans from france and the Irish called them Normans from England

[Sassori]

Ohlala! they all spoke with a "French Accent" anyway...and kept that language even centuries after the invasion of Middle Earth.

[PlPs]

mix of nordic and frankish people

[konny]

The Normans so much mixed with the French (also the nobility of both people) that you hardly can make them a distincitve group. They originally were of Norse descent, but many (other) northern French nobles were of German decent as well without them still being Germans in the 11th Century.

After all, the Normans spoke French, dressed French, fought French, lived French - so what else would be required to be French?

[Poach]

It indeed depends on how you define "French". They were nominally part of France but were essentially independent, though they were also quasi-French in culture.

So I'd say they were Frenchlike, rather than French. They had similarities to the French, but they were not considered French. Much the same way that all the old colonial states have similarities (culture-wise) to their original motherland, but could not be regarded as being of that motherland.

[Miniluv]

No....they're European.

Well seriously...I think they were part French?Not sure.

[Lysimachus]

Final summation: The Normans would have originally been Nordic, but the longer they spent in Normandy the more they became assimilated.

[konny]

It indeed depends on how you define "French". They were nominally part of France but were essentially independent, though they were also quasi-French in culture.

In that time everyone in France outside the Royal Domain was "essentially independent".

[CiviC]

They were like immigrants to America - lets say Italians. The first generation would be mostly Italian, speaking Italian with a aproximate knowledge of English, having Italian culture and customs, etc. The second generation would be bilingual, knowing perfectly both English and Italian, with a mixed American and Italian culture, etc. The third generation would have English as the first language, they still aproximately understand the Italian of their grandfathers, they still keep some elements of Italian culture, but they feel Americans and have the American culture. The fourth generation can call themselves already Americans to whom the only element to hint their Italian origin would be the family name.

[Jaketh]

The Normans where vikings that where offered to settle in Northern France i think