[Amendment] Curator absence and the duty of the pro-curator

[Empress Meg]

I wanted to bat this around again. With Rome's blessing I have the following proposal regarding the curator and their assistant (now to be referred to as the pro-curator) to bring to the curia's attention.

proposal

The Curator is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks get done. Upon entering office the Curator must officially appoint at least one Citizen as the Pro-Curator to fulfill the Curator's role on a planned or unplanned absence, and should the Curator wish, to assist him on day to day tasks. No matter who carries out the tasks assigned to the Curator, the Curator is the one responsible for seeing that they are done promptly and correctly.

The Curator shall be elected by the procedure in Section 2 Article 2, with the addition that the Curator shall post the mandate for the job in the Qualifications thread.

The Curator shall hold his office for a period of three months from the day they are elected. If the Curator is absent (has not logged into the site) for 7 days without giving notice of an absence, or if the Curator is absent for more than 15 days regardless of notice, or if the Curator resigns, the Curator is automatically removed from office along with any appointed staff.

Any decisions of this office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. Where such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the Curator is removed shall not count towards the limit and will continue only from when a new Curator is elected.

When the Curator has been absent for the time prescribed, the CdeC shall appoint a Pro-Curator. The Pro-Curator shall be the longest serving current CdeC member. Where multiple members were elected on the same day, the Pro-Curator shall be the member with the highest number of votes in the CdeC election. Should the qualifying CdeC member intend to stand for Curator, he may not become Pro-Curator and the next longest serving member is appointed.

When the Curator has been absent for the time prescribed above or removed from office, it will then be the Pro-curator's primary task to hold elections for a new curator. During this transitional period, the Pro-curator's additional duties shall include any outstanding tasks of the Curator that should have been completed during that person's absence, organizing any election proceedings, and creating any CdeC polls. The Pro-curator may not break any curial ties nor may they exercise the Curator's discretion. Once a new Curator is elected, the Pro-Curator shall be dismissed, unless the new Curator decides to re-appoint them as his Pro-curator. The Pro-curator may also apply for the seat of Curator if they so wish. In this case, and should they be elected, they must appoint a new Pro-curator.

If the Pro-Curator is also absent from their duties in the event of a removed or absent Curator, the Hexagon Council will appoint a willing member of Staff to the position of Pro-Curator until a new Curator is elected.

If, in the judgement of the Consilium de Civitates, the Curator has neglected their duties or abused his position, it may dismiss the Curator, and arrange new elections.

What do you guys think?

Devoirs The Empress

[Lysimachus]

Don't see anything wrong with this. Support.

[M D]

Is this anything to do with the Curator's Assistant

[Nanny de Bodemloze]

proposal

If, in the judgement of the Consilium de Civitates, the Curator has neglected their duties or abused his position, it may dismiss the Curator, and arrange new elections.

I'm new and not familiar with how this always works, but what happens with this last sentence in view of THIS proposed amendment? If I support this proposal, since it leaves that last sentence in with a small addition, what happens if I wish to support the other proposal, which replaces it entirely?

[Augustus Lucifer]

proposal

If, in the judgement of the Consilium de Civitates, the Curator has neglected their duties or abused his position, it may dismiss the Curator, and arrange new elections.

I'm new and not familiar with how this always works, but what happens with this last sentence in view of THIS proposed amendment? If I support this proposal, since it leaves that last sentence in with a small addition, what happens if I wish to support the other proposal, which replaces it entirely?

If the other bill passed first, that line would not be applied. If this passed first, the other bill would overwrite the new wording there. Conflicts are generally best resolved by not having two votes on the floor that touch the same line at the same time, but in this case Meg's wording is simply a grammatical fix.

Actually she should just use her 'Minor Formative Changes' power to modify the 'and' in there and not include it in this bill, that'd be simpler.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Oh no, what do you have planned?

[karamazovmm]

I thought that it was this way already, If someone can enlighten me on this matter

[Viking Prince]

I would prefer that the ProCurator not be drawn from the Curial appointed staff. If the Curator has been removed in controversity, it would be better to have the senior serving member of CdeC (who is elected) take charge of the election duties as is the current procedure for ProCurator.

I think we have gone over this ground a few times already. Not that there is anything wrong with another time. I seem to have a habit of doing the same thing.

[Empress Meg]

^ We have indeed VP but nothing was every really decided and I thought that unfortunate considering the great discussion it brought and the issues requiring some kind of finalization. (For the time being until someone thinks of something better. )

Procurator and curator's assistant for instance is still confusing to folks and that needs fixing. Not to mention the somewhat roundabout method (but understandable as this is an elected member) of electing a new curator.

Devoirs The Empress

[removeduser_487563287433]

Can anybody say "power base"? I do not see the benefit of this move.

[Bokks]

Actually I do see a small issue with this:

If the Pro-Curator is also absent from their duties in the event of a removed or absent Curator, the Hexagon Council will appoint a willing member of Staff to the position of Pro-Curator until a new Curator is elected.

By what purpose should the Hexagon Council be brought into the proceedings of the Curia? The reappointing of a temporary curator/pro-curator has always been the CdeC's authority, why should that stop now?

I support all the other changes/measures but this, I don't think the Hex council should get their hands dirty when we already have enough traditions in place to take care of this. Just because it's pushed back one individual doesn't mean that all the CdeC say should be removed in entirety.

[Rolanbek]

Question, if the primary function of this change is to remove confusion would:

counter proposal

The Curator is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks get done. Upon entering office the Curator must officially appoint at least one Citizen as To assist in their duties the longest serving Cdec Member is appointed as the Pro-Curator. Where multiple members were elected on the same day, the Pro-Curator shall be the member with the highest number of votes in the CdeC election. Should the qualifying CdeC member intend to stand for Curator, he may not become Pro-Curator and the next longest serving member is appointed. The Pro-Curator is appointed to fulfill the Curator's role on a planned or unplanned absence, and should the Curator wish, to assist him on day to day tasks. No matter who carries out the tasks assigned to the Curator, the Curator is the one responsible for seeing that they are done promptly and correctly.

The Curator shall be elected by the procedure in Section 2 Article 2, with the addition that the Curator shall post the mandate for the job in the Qualifications thread.

The Curator shall hold his office for a period of three months from the day they are elected. If the Curator is absent (has not logged into the site) for 7 days without giving notice of an absence, or if the Curator is absent for more than 15 days regardless of notice, or if the Curator resigns, the Curator is automatically removed from office along with any appointed staff.

Any decisions of this office shall be held over until a replacement is elected. Where such a decision is time-limited, time from the moment the Curator is removed shall not count towards the limit and will continue only from when a new Curator is elected.

When the Curator has been absent for the time prescribed, the CdeC shall appoint a Pro-Curator. The Pro-Curator shall be the longest serving current CdeC member. Where multiple members were elected on the same day, the Pro-Curator shall be the member with the highest number of votes in the CdeC election. Should the qualifying CdeC member intend to stand for Curator, he may not become Pro-Curator and the next longest serving member is appointed.

When the Curator has been absent for the time prescribed above or removed from office, it will then be the Pro-curator's primary task to hold elections for a new curator. During this transitional period, the Pro-curator's additional duties shall include any outstanding tasks of the Curator that should have been completed during that person's absence, organizing any election proceedings, and creating any CdeC polls. The Pro-curator may not break any curial ties nor may they exercise the Curator's discretion. The Pro-curator may also apply for the seat of Curator if they so wish. In this case, and should they be elected, the CdeC member next in seniority described above is appointed as Pro-Curator.

If the Pro-Curator is also absent from their duties in the event of a removed or absent Curator, CdeC member next in seniority described above is appointed as Pro-Curator.
If, in the judgement of the Consilium de Civitates, the Curator has neglected their duties or abused his position, it may dismiss the Curator, and arrange new elections

be equally acceptable? Or prefferable?

R

[magpie]

Just want to oppose the last line , In my opinion the curator is elected by the Curia not the CdeC, So if they want to get rid of the Curator for whatever reason outside of the absence clause of 15 days. a VonC should be presented to the curia and voted on by the Curia.

[Viking Prince]

Just want to oppose the last line , In my opinion the curator is elected by the Curia not the CdeC, So if they want to get rid of the Curator for whatever reason outside of the absence clause of 15 days. a VonC should be presented to the curia and voted on by the Curia.

I agree that other than an absence from duties, a VONC should go before the Curia. However the thrust of this amendment is to create an appointment by the Curator to run the Curial duties upon the Curator's removal. Under all circumstances, this is an unwise policy to propose. Let the CdeC select a ProCurator in some automated fashion (current rules may need a bit of buffing, btw) and keep elected members doing Curial business.

[Bokks]

I agree that other than an absence from duties, a VONC should go before the Curia. However the thrust of this amendment is to create an appointment by the Curator to run the Curial duties upon the Curator's removal. Under all circumstances, this is an unwise policy to propose. Let the CdeC select a ProCurator in some automated fashion (current rules may need a bit of buffing, btw) and keep elected members doing Curial business.

Click, click boom. My sentiments exactly.

I do recognize our two points aren't necessarily connected (why do I get the feeling that people overlooked mai wittle old input? ) but effectively I think we're all going to the same end, here.

We have enough appointments in base--heck, I'm one of them. Let the Curia choose, either directly or indirectly, who the record keeper of the votes will be.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Still waiting for some explanation on how this brings any benefit.

[Viking Prince]

In the odd event that a future and at this time an unkown Curator is the spawn from Hades, then the Pro-Curator will be a close cousin.

I still oppose. I am also interested in the perceived benefits though. I assume this is not change for the sake of change.

[Bokks]

Still waiting for some explanation on how this brings any benefit.

I still oppose. I am also interested in the perceived benefits though. I assume this is not change for the sake of change.

I personally think it's continuity, mostly. I could be wrong, since I obviously don't know Meg good enough to understand everything that goes on in her pretty little head, but what I get from this is that in the case of a Curator being absent for an extended period of time, the position of the Curator dematerializes until new elections are made. With the protocol described above, the Curator's assistant/renamed Pro-Curator (which I personally like, I mean, when was the last time we actually had a pro-Curator in title? I could have happened while I was gone, but it didn't happen for a while before that) will keep in the reigns of the stampeding Brinks carriage until a directly elected citizen can take up the position.

It isn't change for change's sake, it's a more well-designed plan to close a few gaps in the situation and make a smoother transition in a worse-case scenario. I don't think it's perfect by any means: as I've said twice now I believe that the CdeC should be the one to step in should the pro-Curator also go AWOL, not Hex, but all-in-all I do like this proposal better than what we have now.

In the odd event that a future and at this time an unkown Curator is the spawn from Hades, then the Pro-Curator will be a close cousin.

Well, that would happen under the current protocols anyway. The only way that we'd rid ourselves of that potential is for a separate election to also choose the assistant/pro-Curator, and for the abilities they have that'd just be a waste of time.

[Viking Prince]

Yes, but under the current system -- the Pro-Curator would be a spawn that was at least elected and currently serving within CdeC. I prefer elected to appointed spawns from Hades. I think the Curia is owed that courtesy.

[Bokks]

Exactly, which is why I said from the very beginning that the greatest issue I have with this proposal is the last clause change/addition:

If the Pro-Curator is also absent from their duties in the event of a removed or absent Curator, the Hexagon Council will appoint a willing member of Staff to the position of Pro-Curator until a new Curator is elected

I've said since my first post that the Hex council should remain out of the preceedings.

Personally I think it should stick closer to the current protocol, and therefore would prefer the change to be closer to this:

If the Pro-Curator is also absent from their duties in the event of a removed or absent Curator, the Council of Civtates will appoint a willing senior CdeC councilor to the position of Pro-Curator until a new Curator is elected by the Curia main.

I imagine someone else would be able to prescribe a more succinct way to mean that same methodology.

Of course I misinterpret your reservations, Viking Prince, and you actually mean the logistics of the Pro-Curator having been appointed by the Curator and not by the CdeC, then I think that that difference is really only in name.

This proposal only gives the Curator's assistant a different name and more rugged authority in the worse case scenario. As it stands now the Assistant has all of these powers up to a 7-15 day long absence of the Curator. Right now the only thing we can do is acknowledge that the Assistant is the Curator in light form--with all of the responsibilities and none of the priviledges.

This change will keep the Pro-Curator as an inherently unpriviledged stand-in for the Curator, but it would allow for the Pro-Curator to open new elections for the Curator after the window of time for the Curator to return has closed.

Under the current system the CdeC holds an impromptu election to appoint a Pro-Curator who exists for that sole purpose, making it so that we need two elections (or at least one and a half) where only one should suffice.