Thinking aloud on AP unit for Arnor (preview moved to the submod section)

[Berengar]

I've been a longstanding lurker in this forum and have played all versions of this truly amazing mod except 1.2. Credit and congratulations to all involved!

I am delighted to see the reworked Eriador and also the Gundabad/Angmar remnants faction in 2.0 because that is a part of the map I have only previously "visited" by means of an High Elven let's-link-Imladris-with-Lindon-while-I-wait-for-Orthanc to change culture juggernaut. I usually tend to be a quality over quantity player (you know, the guy who plays Aragon in Stainless Steel or Khwarezm in Broken Crescent). I like winning with few troops and fewer casualties and get thrills when the enemy costs me more gold than lives).

I loved the new Dale (despite - and maybe even because - of the lack of OP bodyguards) , and I love the new Arnor even more. Its early mix of keep-your-distance archers and mobile shock cavalry is perfect for me, and it's later "discovery" of the value of defensive formations mirrors mine with M2TW.

So, cut to the chase, I am now playing reformed Arnor. I really love the faction, but two things I wish to modify in my next playthrough. First: the map. Given Eriador's lack of early determined enemies and later potential economic/military dominance over the orcs of the Gundies and Misties, I intend to have at least Fornost (and quite possibly Amon Sul and even Staddle) stay rebel at the beginning of the game. I fell these guys need to earn their unification, rather than achieve it when Saruman and Gundabad are already crumbling to dust (as happened to me). This my limited modding experience allows me to code quite easily.

The other issue: an AP unit. Arnor has none. Even the High Elves - with whom I have enjoyed the same roaring success many others seem to experience playing the Silvans - now have the Smiths of Eregion, and for good reason. Arnor (especially if slowed down by my proposed strat map changes) will be struggling against armoured orcs (Isengard) or thick-skinned trolls (Gundies and Misties) for a significant part of the middle game. And if they can adopt pikes, they should be bright enough to adopt axes/maces too.

What I'm looking for here are suggestions. I rarely mod units and I try to do so "realistically" and in the spirit of the faction and the mod I play. E.g. I see why Uruks may make sense for Romuli in Thera but not "Good" Factions in TATW. The value of horse archers can be apparent to concerned Franks in Broken Crescent but not Spanish conquistadores who already field tercios and muskets.

So, what AP unit makes sense for Arnor?

In my campaign didn't even have lumbermen I could carry over at reformation because of the building bug, so I felt this lack keenly.

I need to choose just one. It should be rare and slowly regenerate for balance, but not awkward in gamplay terms for fun, so I assume slow recruitment in any settlement with the right culture/barracks/other devs but sans AOR.

Here are a few options and my thoughts on them, first mercs and then new tactics:

Dwarven mercenaries/subjects - e.g. halbardiers or 2H axemen, quite suitable for the purpose but tricky to judge in AOR/cultural terms, especially in my campaign where the Dwarves attacked my Elven allies and I totally crushed them in the West - could still justify using their methods though

Rohirrim mercenaries - that would be either Riddermark Axemen as flankers or Riddermark Skirmishers as a highly flexible jav cav innovation - attractive for the purpose but variably justifiable - Skirmishers are perhaps too strong to add to Arnor's limited but nonetheless powerful cavalry roster and Axemen make sense, but they're rare and some Arnor players may be at war with Rohan, not allied like me

Elven smiths - here for the sake of argument, fit for purpose, but too rare to be mercs and unlikely to even be reestablished in meaningful numbers in a non-Elven re-conquest of Eregion

Rhudaur mercenaries - the Gundies get a merc unit that fits the bill exactly, Rhudaur axemen I think they're called, a medium infantry unit with pre-charge javelins and axe and shield in close combat - if Arnor is re-established, couldn't the King persuade some of these renegades to take th oath? This is quite plausible but their equipment would need rejigging to conform to Arnorian military style

Beornings - not exactly neighbours (although I had a border after I stormed the High Pass) but suitable for purpose as 2H axemen flankers, not very Arnorian in feel though?

Or:

the domestic innovations:

Battle ready Dunedain armed with 2H axes / maces - new unit using the old 2H sword BRD (Eriador only, not Arnor) with AP weaponry - these powerful Rangers would be quite used to individual heroics and choose a new role and tactics over fitting into reformed Arnor's new, more formation based, military doctrine, so becoming powerful flankers but vulnerable to missiles and cav charges

Heavy halbardiers akin to the Barding Hird - reformed Arnor's new formation fighting doctrine combined with the experience of Rangers facing trolls and dwarves of the Blue Mountains - slow, heavily armoured, acting as a disciplined unit but with high cost and limited tactical flexibility

I believe a reformed Arnor would face this choice. I am not sure. Which would yours be?

[Berengar]

For the record, right now I am using slow recruitment (approx 1/12.5 rounds recruitment in level 3 castle/4 city smiths) Arnorian quasi Barding Hirds (called Bridge Wardens - you never know where there might be a troll lurking) - i.e formation based, heavilty armoured, halbard wielding guys, currently recoding to make them look more like Dunedian (helmet, cloak , shields etc.)

[Gharbad the Weak]

Arnor pikemen make short work of trolls, even though they don't got AP. Try a custom battle with 1 unit of Olog-hai vs 1 unit of pikemen, Trolls will be slaughtered.

[Hallow]

Arnor pikemen make short work of trolls, even though they don't got AP. Try a custom battle with 1 unit of Olog-hai vs 1 unit of pikemen, Trolls will be slaughtered.

I just did, managed to get Trolls down to 3 before my remaining 15 Pikemen routed.

[Berengar]

I just did, managed to get Trolls down to 3 before my remaining 15 Pikemen routed.

That's what happened to me just fighting cave trolls... Beastslayers it is!

[Gharbad the Weak]

That's what happened to me just fighting cave trolls... Beastslayers it is!

My results against all different trolls on VH/VH;







You will encounter trolls long before pikemen are available though, so a new unit might not be such a bad idea.

[Berengar]

Maybe it's my tactics, but in several custom battle tests, it was my pikemen that got slaughtered by Misty cave trolls. They started out spearwall/defensive but switched if the line was broken by the trolls. I even lost a pike + knights vs one troll unit battle. What am I doing wrong?

But, original point. I still think there should be something more... choppy... in Arnor's roster. Just for style. If they aren't better than pikes, call it flavour. If they are, call it survival.

[Shocked]

Maybe it's my tactics, but in several custom battle tests, it was my pikemen that got slaughtered by Misty cave trolls. They started out spearwall/defensive but switched if the line was broken by the trolls. I even lost a pike + knights vs one troll unit battle. What am I doing wrong?

Remember to place Halbierdiers and Pikemen in defensive formation before they engage, because this is not already activated. And I agree, I think that Eriador should have more rebel settlements and less starting settlements, it was far too easy for me, and I found it extremely easy to fight off the orcs of gundabad and Isengard (early units)

[Gharbad the Weak]

The game is biased towards the player, or it just doesn't know how to handle trolls. If you play as mordor with trolls you will win from pikemen, if you play as pikemen you will win from trolls. Both on VH/VH

[Jean=A=Luc]

Definitely agree about more Eriador settlements starting out as rebels. It was one of the first things that came to my mind when I saw their starting position.

I'd go for Amon Sul and Barrow Downs rather than Staddle since it was an inhabited village near Bree. Eriador starts out too large imo.

As for ap I don't think every faction should have everything but it'd be easy to make Lumberman recruitable for Arnor or set up some dwarven mercs.

[smoesville]

I'd go for Amon Sul and Barrow Downs rather than Staddle since it was an inhabited village near Bree. Eriador starts out too large imo.

i made the barrow downs part of mordor and made OoG and OotMM at war with eriador so they attack within 4-5 turns

[lordyu]

Mordor have no direct influence in eriador. it worked through allies.

barrow downs should be Rebel and rebels should be strengthened.

OoG and OotMM at war with eriador, very good idea. My wish is that Eriador should be split to better represent the hobbits and breemen protected status.

[smoesville]

Mordor have no direct influence in eriador. it worked through allies.

barrow downs should be Rebel and rebels should be strengthened.

OoG and OotMM at war with eriador, very good idea. My wish is that Eriador should be split to better represent the hobbits and breemen protected status.

Yes i tried making barrow wights with dismounted nazgul as the model but it just didn't work; they were invisible

[Kwisatz Haderach]

I mentioned this when I first saw the roster for Eriador/Arnor. Lack of ap units for Arnor is a big problem for them, especially in seige battles where cavalry are all but useless. Keeping lumbermen in their roster is the best solution I think (unless someone wants to make a new ap unit).

I definitely agree that some of the outer regions for Eriador (like Amon Sul and Barrow Downs) should start as rebel settlements. Playing as Eriador should really just be a struggle to eke out a meagre existence (it should be a real accomplishment to form Arnor) but right now things are a tad too comfortable at the start.

[slowbro]

Arnor (especially if slowed down by my proposed strat map changes) will be struggling against armoured orcs (Isengard) or thick-skinned trolls (Gundies and Misties) for a significant part of the middle game.

Actually the trolls have very little armor most of its defense (75%) comes from defence skill which armor piercing will not affect. I can point out that missiles ignore defence skill you figure out the rest.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Missiles have never been very effective against trolls in the mod. You end up wasting arrows because most don't hit (you always get less kills from 1 volley when there are few soldiers in a unit) and they would have been better spent on the masses of orcs anyway (they drop like flies under missile attack).

Try a unit of Eldar archers vs. Olog Hai 1 on 1 then try a unit of dragonslayers and see which ends up being more effective.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Actually the trolls have very little armor most of its defense (75%) comes from defence skill which armor piercing will not affect. I can point out that missiles ignore defence skill you figure out the rest.

Yeah, trolls have pretty low armour now (more so than before it seems) though I haven't yet tried ranged units against them. As some people report arrows have trouble hitting sometimes.

[kaltorak]

Well in LOTR:TW for Rome in the second age submod was an arnorean unit that would fit the gap - Numenorean axemen. 1hd axe, shield and same armor as other high tier units, looked good and worked well...

[Louis Lux]

Nice post, I can certainly picture a Eriador/Arnor unit with a long standing tradition of slaying trolls. IMO this unit should be more unique and not just a rehash of existing units, if anyone has a good concept I can take a shot at making it.

[Berengar]

I'm glad to see agreement on reducing Arnor's staring territory. Re-emergence should be tough - after all, in the lore it didn't happen till after the war of the ring, no doubt fuelled by Gondorian settlers and gold. It would have been harder if I hadn't held Isengard off on the blood drenched bridges over the Gwathlo River, but Saruman's influence made it, if weakly, as far as the Shire in the Lore. I'm aiming for a balance that lets and AI Eriador cope, but they'll not be getting Fornost, Amon Sul and the Barrow Downs (thanks J-A-L for the point on Staddle).

Other point. I know that trolls don't have a huge amount of armour (although they have more in RR/RC which I rather enjoy) and the Isengard units aren't really that armoured. But it's the feel of the thing - you'd think the Dunedain would have taken something from their proximity to the Trollshaws and Isengard plate certainly looks daunting, and as a Ranger, I'd reach for a long axe. So, out of the options listed above, which do you think would be most appropriate for Arnor?

I will try my hand at making a new unit, which is why I am less inclined to the Dwarven/Rohirrim mercenary option. I am not an experienced modder but I reckon I could stick together something based on templates already made for other units in a new way, i.e. halberdiers would look much like Arnorian men at arms or Rhudaur Axemen remade with Arnorian armour and shields. 2H axe troll hunters would be similar to the Battle Ready Dunedain.

So, which? I want to start work on it in the next couple of days.