Tactical Tips?

[Verek]

Ok, so first post. Basically, I hadn't played RTW in ages and decided to go hunting for some mods to play, since my computer is aging and can't really play anything current anymore. I'm not a terrible commander, I at least understand the very basics of tactics on a classical battlefield, but I need some help in refining my tactics so that I can take less losses and inflict more. I want those Heroic Victories and the epithets they confer on glorious generals!

So, anyway, I have some questions that hopefully some experienced armchair generals can answer. First, let me describe my usual tactics. I like to play as Pontus or Bactria in campaigns, but I've played custom battles with pretty much every faction to understand their units better. Normally, I have lots of Phalangites/Bronze Shields as my main line infantry, often to the exclusion of other types of infantry. I generally feel confident of beating anything with 4-9 units of Phalangites and as few as one unit of cavalry if it's a high quality one. (If only Pontus had Cataphracts, they'd be unstoppable. Cappadocian Cavalry is great, but it doesn't inflict the same sort of damage.) I deploy my phalangites in the front, slowly advance and/or wait until the enemy is foolish enough to engage me. Then once they're engaged, I start to smash them against the anvil of my infantry with the hammer of my cavalry.

Now, this usually works pretty well, but I want to go further. I want to be able to win with less troops and with taking less casualties. I haven't really found much use for skirmishers, particularly skirmisher cavalry, because while they may be fast, they just don't inflict enough casualties to include them in my armies, at least not in my experience, and the same goes with archers, though I use plenty of archers in my garrisons. Also, I wonder if there are better ways to take on enemy phalangites than with phalangites of your own, because the casualties are generally pretty large on both sides, even with cavalry support. Speaking of which, I never know when I should use the wedge formation and when I shouldn't, and also I'm never sure how far I should withdraw my cavalry before charging into an enemy's flanks again, and so the damage my cavalry does when it strikes is often inconsistent, which ends up costing me time. We all want that perfect cavalry charge that breaks a unit in a single charge, right?

I also have trouble at times defeating enemy cavalry, especially skirmisher cavalry, if they're not stupid enough to run into my phalanxes, which to the AI's credit, they usually aren't. Now, skirmishers usually don't inflict many casualties on my troops, but with armor-piercing javelins, there's always the possibility, and since it's hard to kill them, sometimes I have to sacrifice a fast moving unit to keep them occupied while my main line does the dirty work.

So, mainly, my question is, how can I refine my crude hammer-and-anvil techniques to be a true world-conquering military genius, while taking as few casualties as possible, and should I change my thinking of what a basic army should consist of? Help me prepare myself to start playing on the higher difficulty levels!

And also, this is more of a peripheral question, but how the hell are you supposed to win with a cavalry only force like the Scythians or Parthians? Most heavy cavalry has trouble catching up to heavy infantry if the infantry is running away, and if they're running away, my understanding is that your charge bonus is shot. Also: chariots. Are they overpriced and useless or am I just using them wrong?

[TM Is Back]

I would deploy some more normal heavy and light infantry instead of so many phalangites. A few can do the job of pinning the enemy down. However, my own tactics are mainly that I try to disrupt the enemy's battle line, by advancing and retreating, and then to smash one site with some heavy cavalry and heavy infantry while other cavalry chaise the enemy's ranged units. Once one flank is destroyed, victory is yours for you can then turn and surround the enemy completely with few losses.

About the phalangites vs phalangites question, once they ingage you should directly charge into their rear to minimize your cassualties.

So, in my opinion, a strong, but small, heavy anvil and a flexible, but strong, flanking infantry army accompanied by some 3 or 4 heavy cavalry and you'll be victor with few losses, if you of course fight quickly and flexible.

[Verek]

The reason I usually use so many Phalangites is because, since I normally play as Pontus or Bactria, my main enemies are usually the Ptolemies or the Seleucid Empire, both of whom seem to deploy lots of Phalangites. Most of the time, I find myself up against at least 6 units of all varieties of phalangites, not to mention various other troops, and any time you're flanked by a unit of Phalangites, even Levy Phalangites, you're pretty much screwed. This isn't usually an issue since they move so slowly, but unless you can get them engaged, even a rear cavalry charge from a good heavy cavalry unit doesn't do much to disrupt the unit, and you gotta hightail it out of there before they bring their sarissas to bear. Light and heavy infantry, with a few exceptions, just cannot hold their own in melee against a phalanx of any sort. Yes, they are great to have to exploit flanking opportunities, but against so many phalangites, it's hard to hold a line that you can flank.

I have noticed that skirmisher cavalry are great in the role of harassing other skirmishers and missile troops, but the problem I run into in my campaigns is that both Light and Heavy eastern cavalry run out of javelins so quickly, usually without many kills, that I've pretty much got a useless unit on the battlefield, especially in the case of Light Cavalry, which will not hold up in melee with any unit and has a poor charge besides, and Heavy Cavalry isn't much better, though it can be used to charge flanks of lesser infantry with some success. But, I have discovered that just about any unit armed with javelins will take down Elephants without breaking a sweat. Which is nice, because before that I pretty much just ignored elephants and hoped they would go away.

I want to adopt a faster, more flexible style of tactics, but I just can't seem to make it work. Maybe I've just gotten stuck in the hammer and anvil approach because it works for the factions I like to play as. I'd be pretty much screwed if I tried to play as the Romans or the Gauls, or really any faction without Phalangites. I wouldn't know what to do. Case in point, I tried to play the Historical Battle of the Romans against the Seleucid Empire, took one look at the Roman troop deployment, and scratched my head. Why are the Triarii in the back? They're the strongest infantry, they should be in the front! Are you supposed to keep withdrawing and attacking until you're ready for a frontal charge with Principes? I just don't get the Pre-Marian Roman battle lines... and I don't really understand how a Legion is supposed to fight either, especially against Phalangites since they've got a huge range advantage in their favor. But I guess that's why I don't play as the Romans.

[Lobo Solitario]

Case in point, I tried to play the Historical Battle of the Romans against the Seleucid Empire, took one look at the Roman troop deployment, and scratched my head. Why are the Triarii in the back? They're the strongest infantry, they should be in the front! Are you supposed to keep withdrawing and attacking until you're ready for a frontal charge with Principes? I just don't get the Pre-Marian Roman battle lines... and I don't really understand how a Legion is supposed to fight either, especially against Phalangites since they've got a huge range advantage in their favor. But I guess that's why I don't play as the Romans.

I think the army layout in the historical battle is based on (an approximation) of historical Roman tactics, in which the Hastati engaged the enemy first, fought until they were tired out, and then withdrew behind the Principes, who took over until they were tired, when it came down to the Triarii. This works nicely in real life (in theory), as it keeps your veterans safe and fresh while tiring out the enemy. In XGM, unfortunately, fatigue is normally turned off, and isn't as much of a factor anyway, so this layout leaves something to be desired.

[Unknown Soldier]

A Roman army/legion (human controlled) will totally destroy any (AI controlled) pike army very easily - javelin fire will have such a devastating morale effect. Once the Romans break into the pike unit its sword vs sword - pikemen are just so many corpses....

Roman heavy infantry are tough/disciplined and very maneuverable/flexible on the battlefield both historically and in RTW.

[TM Is Back]

The reason I usually use so many Phalangites is because, since I normally play as Pontus or Bactria, my main enemies are usually the Ptolemies or the Seleucid Empire, both of whom seem to deploy lots of Phalangites. Most of the time, I find myself up against at least 6 units of all varieties of phalangites, not to mention various other troops, and any time you're flanked by a unit of Phalangites, even Levy Phalangites, you're pretty much screwed. This isn't usually an issue since they move so slowly, but unless you can get them engaged, even a rear cavalry charge from a good heavy cavalry unit doesn't do much to disrupt the unit, and you gotta hightail it out of there before they bring their sarissas to bear. Light and heavy infantry, with a few exceptions, just cannot hold their own in melee against a phalanx of any sort. Yes, they are great to have to exploit flanking opportunities, but against so many phalangites, it's hard to hold a line that you can flank.

That's why I say you have to disrupt the enemy's battle line or make them break it themselves. Once that line is fallen you can just run the phalangites down one by one. However, it requires speed and experience to do that and I must admit you get a lot of your own units killed if you are not quick enough with your orders.

Whatever you do, do not engage their main battle line unless your own is wider and you have cavalry supperiority and very strong flanking units. If you do not have that, disrupt the enemy formation by sending cavalry behind them or by luring them with missile units.

[Lobo Solitario]

While your basic tactics seem fairly sound, your army sounds like it could do with some extra flexibility. Here are some tips which I hope can help:

-The main objective in the battle is always to rout the enemy as quickly as possible. The best way to achieve this is through force concentration and stacking morale modifiers, rather than through causing enemy casualties.

-Missile fire causes morale penalties to enemy troops. Flanking causes morale penalties. If you can get hold of any special units that cause fear, like berserkers, chariots or elephants, they come in handy as well.

-Reducing positive enemy morale modifiers is also important. Kill or draw away from the battle units that provide morale bonuses such as the general (always kill if possible) and druids.

My basic armies normally have the following layout, depending on unit availability:

-A block of 3-7 phalangites in the centre of the line.
-A wing of 2-4 Thureophoroi/Thorakitai to either side of the phalangites.
-At least three units of lance-armed cavalry (including the general and light cavalry).*
-At least two units of skirmishers, slingers or archers.
-Support troops including 2-3 units of heavy infantry, additional types of missile troops, additional light/missile cavalry*.

*Ideally I would have a wing of heavy cavalry including my generals, plus a few units of light/missile cavalry to harass the enemy and mop up routers, but circumstances rarely permit this. In early battles I find a couple of generals and two decent units of light lancers make do quite well.

In the opening minutes of the battle, it is important to establish battlefield control if possible. You should always aim to have cavalry superiority, as this enables you to proactively hunt down the enemy general and take out their cavalry and missile troops before the rest of your line engages, limiting their mobility and missile capability, and allowing you to move your lighter troops around freely without fear of enemy cavalry.

If the enemy includes dangerous heavy units like hoplites, your skirmishers can now close in and draw them away from the enemy line, leading them on a merry chase around the battlefield.

When the enemy is defending, use your missile troops to goad them into attacking your phalanx line. Do this by moving into arrow range, placing your missile troops in front of your phalangites and opening fire. Skirmishers can do in a pinch, although they have to move closer to the enemy. When the enemy is attacking, this can also be a good way to make them concentrate on the centre of your line rather than the flanks.

As the enemy closes, your missile troops should be disrupting their formation, while any skirmishers available will be hitting their flanks and rear to further disorganise their line. Your wings will hit them with a heavy shower of javelins as well (remember to put fire at will on) - this can sometimes lead to a rout on its own.

When the lines meet, if your line is longer than theirs (try to stretch your troops out a bit when setting up the line, without compromising unit depth too much), you can flank with any of the units in the wings that have not been engaged. Heavy infantry can stay in reserve to plug the gaps if the enemy has powerful units likely to break through your lines, or move around to flank as well. Missile troops can also move around to fire from the flanks or rear if there is no cavalry threat.

Now all that is left to do is perform a decisive rear charge with your cavalry and any free flanking infantry in order to chain-rout the enemy - it can be a good idea to hit one of the enemy wings and "roll up" their line as they rout, or you can just go and smash them right in the centre and hope the lot break at once. If it doesn't work, pull back your cavalry immediately and look for a weaker unit which is engaged on at least two flanks, and hit that instead.

Finally, the enemy rout. Now it's up to your light cavalry, skirmisher cavalry and missile cavalry to kill as many of them as possible. If the battle went as planned, this should be the time when you get most of your kills - I generally kill around 10-40% of the enemy in combat and end up with around 75-100% kills during the routing phase.

Most of this advice assumes you were able to establish total battlefield control through cavalry and missile superiority. If you can't do this, the battle is going to be bloodier and harder depending on just how much the enemy can dictate terms to you. Do your best to minimise the advantages available to the enemy and make good use of the terrain where possible.

There's a lot more advice to be given, but I think this covers the basics - other useful topics can be found on the forum (use of jav-cav, horse archers, slingers, special units and plenty more).

tl;dr? Add some Thorakitai to the wings and try to envelop the enemy. Use missile troops for the morale penalty they inflict. Aim to rout the enemy rather than kill them. Bring plenty of cavalry to charge and then mop up. Try to keep your army flexible and mobile - phalanxes are tough but too slow to flank.

[death to the romans]

I have noticed that skirmisher cavalry are great in the role of harassing other skirmishers and missile troops, but the problem I run into in my campaigns is that both Light and Heavy eastern cavalry run out of javelins so quickly, usually without many kills, that I've pretty much got a useless unit on the battlefield, especially in the case of Light Cavalry, which will not hold up in melee with any unit and has a poor charge besides, and Heavy Cavalry isn't much better, though it can be used to charge flanks of lesser infantry with some success. But, I have discovered that just about any unit armed with javelins will take down Elephants without breaking a sweat. Which is nice, because before that I pretty much just ignored elephants and hoped they would go away.

well, i've used light cavalry to devastating effect in my pontic campaign. with half a stack of them, and some infantry, I beat quite a lot TSE stacks. first i send them forward to harass the enemy from all sides(yes the thing is TSE didn't recruit much cavalry to chase mine down) and the units start running in all directions, non of them the good one. then they are sperated and your (usually) weaker infantry use mass numbers to crush them one by one.

[Lobo Solitario]

Now I've had time to look at the Pontic campaign properly, I can see your where your cavalry issues are coming from - Pontus doesn't have any lancers until Cappadocian Cavalry, which are a long way up the tech tree. I would suggest taking Ancyra early on and recruiting auxiliary Light (Galatian?) Cavalry, as the barbarian light cavalry make for wonderful lancers and rout-chasers.

I also certainly agree with other posters that skirmisher cavalry are brilliant units as well, and highly recommend you experiment with them to unlock their full potential. They work best in groups, as you need to be hitting the enemy from the flanks or rear to do the most damage. They're also handy for splitting off from your main army on the strategic map to chase down defeated enemy armies, screen against small forces trying to delay/get behind you or perform surgical strikes to take out key enemy units in an opposing army before engaging it.

There are a few tips on how to use skirmisher cavalry in this forum post.

[Verek]

Well, I just achieved my first heroic victory. After lots of test battles, I decided that since I don't really know how the AI thinks, I wasn't building accurate practice armies to fight against. So, desiring a challenge, I started a campaign as the GCS and quickly found myself knee deep in Macedonians. After a few abortive attempts that quickly got me and my faction annihilated, I opted for a different strategy:

First, I mustered my four youngest generals so that I might keep some elder statesmen alive to conduct affairs of the state in Sparta, gathering as many units as I could while simultaneously leaving a few behind to at least inflict a few attritional losses on the invading Macedonians. I had no plans to defend Athens or Patras. Or fight a defensive battle at all, since Sparta starts without any walls. Instead, I let the Macedonians bring their armies into my territory. After about 3 turns, they had moved about 2 to 2.5 stacks of units in various armies in threatening positions around Athens, Patras, with a main force in Corinth lead by Gyras. Separated from its reinforcements, I chose this opportunity to strike with my force of 2537 soldiers, including the Spartan Royal Guard and Athenian Hoplites, along with Thureophoroi, some jav cav, a few others and the 4 generals. I only had two units of Militia Phalangites, so I was a little worried about how well the line would hold. Despite being up against a force of 3871 which included a buttload of both regular and levy Phalangites, not to mention Foot Companions, with my 4 general units and the 3 units of jav cav I had decided to train in the first few turns, I had total cavalry superiority, and started the battle by using contingents of 2 general units and accompanying jav cav on either flank, to chase down and slaughter what little cavalry they had. It took longer than I had hoped, since the entire battle hinged on the success of my cavalry, and the battles attracted a little heat from some light infantry which was eventually crushed as soon as the heavy cav I was most concerned with routed.

In the meantime, however, for whatever reason the enemy general decided to charge headfirst into the center of my battle line, right into my Phalangites. These lesser troops crumpled a little from the charge, but held fast and drove the general off into the cavalry fracas on the right flank, where he was later killed, much to the dismay of his own troops. A general engagement began after that ill-fated cavalry charge, and I was surprised at how well the elite Hoplite units held against Phalangites. But, I guess that's what makes them elite. The situation looked pretty poor for me at first as the infantry battle began. My missile units were all deployed in positions to bring fire on whatever came close to the line, and the elite units were holding the flanks. I wrote my militia phalangites off as expendable from the get go, but it didn't help that they were other in danger of being flanked by higher quality phalangites. Luckily, the amount of heat they drew allowed some of my hoplites to get into flanking positions, slowly inflicting losses on the solid battle line the Macs brought against me. But, soon after the death of Gyras and the ensuing freedom of my cavalry, the tide had turned, and I quickly rolled up the line, routing everything in my way and inflicting disgusting casualties while losing few men after the initial heavy losses I had taken.

When all was said and done, only one of my units routed, a Militia Phalangite, with the other also taking heavy losses around 70%. But elsewhere, losses were much lighter, though my generals took a beating across the board from the protracted cavalry melee. I have no doubt they would have been slaughtered if it hadn't been for the jav cav support. The final kill tally was 3243 to 884, leaving me with a bloody nose, but them with a nearly completely destroyed force. Needless to say, I was quite pleased with myself, especially since I overcame quantitative and qualitative inferiority for the most part. Yes, I had the help of 4 general units, the SRG and Athenian hoplites, but most of my force was low quality. Anyway, now I feel as if I'm starting to get a firmer grasp on the battle system, which seems to reward a bit of risk-taking. There's still a lot to learn, but I've taken a step forward.

So... maybe I'll start an AAR or something... you know, so I have a reason to take screen caps, instead of just trying to describe my battles. Anyway, thanks for all the tips, folks.

[knguyen_93]

Okay, I have seen so many people got troubles with controlling his/maybe her army to victory. I humbly beg you to give some attention to my post as a guide for further achievement or for his/her own goods. Let we make these points straight. You have to be able to understand all the strength and weakness of a faction or just take the Artificial Intelligence lack of "intelligence" as your advantage.1st Let look at the version of XGM ur playing, if you guy run it with Alex it is supposed to be alot harder that doing it with BI. 2nd which kind of faction you choosing to play at. There are 3 kinds of faction: Steppe with light skirmishers, Infantry back-bone or Phalanx back-bone.
+ If you playing with Steppe army, I advice to take command of a full stack of HORSE-ARCHERS no need for heavy cavalry support, why?, because commanding a large a mount of horse archer require a lot attention. Different from what the topic host said "skirmisher units don't inflict large casualty", it is true that if nearly 12 arrows shooting on the front can take down a legionary soldier, but only 2 arrows are required to take him down on the back. Ok let get back to the topic, first step is dividing your horse arches in 4 groups of 5 (20 units total for a stack). When the enemy approaching, 2 groups will attack them on the front, if its possible, direct the hit at the general. The third and fourth groups will take them down from left and right flank. Dont forget to pause and direct the troop advancement. If the enemy general is routed use one of your unit to hunt him down. The rest is pretty easy, circle the enemy and shoot from all directions. NOW, A SOLUTION vs STEPPE FACTIONS, when facing the army of horsemen, i would prefer to carry no catapult or cavalry with me. If its possible hire some units of mounting archers. Now your army will consist of 10 units of archer and 10 units of heavy spearmen (attention: i mean spearmen, not "pikemen") turn your attention to the heavy cavalry, use your spearmen to attack them "one vs one" "one spear for one cavalry" and make your archer will take care of their horse archer. That will loose the formation of the enemy, unable them to concentrate firing on any directions.
+ If you playing as the infantry-back bone like Rome or Gauls, it is pretty easy just 2 engage the enemy and cavalry charge on the flanks. And for the counter solution, use phalanx (scroll down) or horse archers (scroll up).
+ I love playing phalanx the most, unified the whole vanilla map as Syracuse once. Ok, this will be the consistence of your Hellenistic army: 7 units of pikemens (recommend heavy ones) will stand for the main battle line, 6 units of Thorakitai & 3 on both flanks, you can use hoplites of u prefer (not recommend cuz hoplite aint have any javelin), 4 unit of archers will be placed between 2 blocks of thorakitai behind the phalanx. & finally 3 squadron of heavy cavalry (recommend cataphract). Ok here the strategy, group the whole army as 1 and advance yr army toward the enemy. NOTICE: rise the pike until your close in with the enemy, walking with pikes head-down will dis-array yr formation in rocky terrain. AND for the million times, don't just sit on your butt and wait for the enemy to attack, engage the enemy with your phalanx and take them down with a back-stab cavalry charge or encircle them with your flank infantry. AND NOW this is the counter strategy. Set all your infantry unit in loose formation. If its possible, put them on higher ground than the phalanx. Put many heavy skirmishing units in your army like catapult or javelin. They will make the phalanx easier to be destroyed from far-range. If you wanna charge the pikemen head on, set your cavalry in wedge formation, that will minimize the loose.
OK we will continue tomorrow, i gotta have something for breakfast, its been a long pause since the last time I played this mod lolololol

[Diomede]

I'm curious knguyen, if you're playing as say, the Gauls and have to have a stack capable of defending against both Macedonians and Scythians what set-up would you use?

[knguyen_93]

I'm curious knguyen, if you're playing as say, the Gauls and have to have a stack capable of defending against both Macedonians and Scythians what set-up would you use?

Man do you realize that the Gaul have heavy infantry as well as heavy spearmen? Against steppe army: use heavy spearmen and chosen slinger, against hellenic army: use heavy sword men with chosen slinger (they are best at attacking immobile, heavy armour phalanx

[Diomede]

That requires swapping units in and out, which I'd do anyway, I was asking what you'd use for both without doing so. e.g. if you were to take Tomi while at war with both factions and attacked the same turn.

[knguyen_93]

Hahaha, man you seriously need to get a buffer zone with an empire. just like Roman with Gallic zone on the north. For your case use a diplomat to sell that settlement to the Thracian - they are allied with the Scythian

[Diomede]

heh, they've already been wiped out by Macedon. I used the Germans as a buffer zone after taking most of their empire, but Macedonia's been pretty aggressive. Luckily I removed the Roman threat before I had to deal with them.

[FrozenSol]

Can anyone give me advice on Carthago campaign i conquer North Africa and Spain hold on the Gauls and take Tolosa but in Sicily i cant hold the romans and give the region i control to the indi GCS and when i get this stage i dont know what to do i cant bead the Romans and i dont know that to do ?

[DimeBagHo]

Here's one approach that works quite well: Put together an army that is about half Libyan Spearmen and Half Numidian Cavalry.

You could add a unit or two of Balearic Slingers or Numidian Skirmishers. You could also substitute some Levy Phalangites for some of the Libyan Spearmen. If you do then a method that works quite well is to put your Levy Phalangites in a long shallow formation (maybe just 3-4 men deep) and then put your Libyan Spearmen in a similar shallow formation immediately in front of them so that they are standing in amongst the pikes of the Phalangites behind them. You can do the same sort of thing with Iberian Scutarii as well. The result is a formation that has many of the advantages of a phalanx, but with tougher troops in the front ranks so that the Romans won't be able to break into it so easily.

Start with your cavalry behind the infantry line, and "fire at will" switched off. Use your line to pin and hold the Roman line. Move your cavalry out to one flank. Kill any cavalry they have. Soften them up with a volley or two of javelins first before attacking them in mass. Kill their general if you get a chance. Ideally you should wait until the Roman infantry is fully engaged with your infantry line before attacking them with your cavalry.

When you do attack, start by lining your cavalry up behind one flank of the Roman line. Switch on fire at will and hit them with a couple of volleys of javelins. Then execute a charge into the backs of maybe 2-3 units on the flank. If they don't rout within 5 seconds or so of contact. Pull back, line up again, fire another volley of javelins and try again. Don't let your cavalry get tied up in a prolonged melee and don't attack Triarii at all until they are seriously worn down.

When you get elephants you can do something similar, but this time get your elephants to hit the Roman flank from the side at the same time that your cavalry charges from the rear. You may also find it useful to bring along a half stack or more of reinforcements and leave them under AI control. Numidian Skirmishers or Iberian Caetrati can be quite useful for this - their javelins will wear the Romans down, their skirmishing will tend to scatter the Romans as they chase individual units, and they are cheap to replace.

Hope that helps.

[knguyen_93]

Can anyone give me advice on Carthago campaign i conquer North Africa and Spain hold on the Gauls and take Tolosa but in Sicily i cant hold the romans and give the region i control to the indi GCS and when i get this stage i dont know what to do i cant bead the Romans and i dont know that to do ?

Read my post right here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...98#post7470098

[FrozenSol]

Read my post right here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...98#post7470098

10x all but this post is for romans i'm playing as Carthage