Historical Combat mini-mod

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Hello all,

Just got hold of this after the XGM. Great mods, the pair, but a few historical inaccuracies that I figure I'd take a crack at, and a few misunderstandings about the Rome engine that I'll address at some point.

If I've done this correctly, I've uploaded a modified export_desc_unit, and just download it into your data folder - I've changed stats, nothing more.

1. Everyone has 2 hps.

I've done this on every sub-mod I've done for Rome and Med II, and it works a charm. Suddenly, you can see the ebb and flow of a battle without watching your guys just get mullered by walking near an enemy unit, and it really comes into breaking them rather than just grinding them into the dirt. Far more historical.

2. Ranged units have been improved.

To balance all units having 2 hit points, archers have been given a +4 damage boost, and slingers a +2 boost. I know it sounds arbitrary, but I've tested it for a long time in other mods, and it seems to be the best balance. Ranged units still have a great effect, but don't simply dominate over infantry.

3. Slings actually go further than bows.

I'm not sure why, but all your slingers seem to have an 80m range. This is quite bizarre, as every historical source stresses their extreme range. Ancient sources give us ranges of 600 metres as a max range, however modern reproduction can only manage 477 metres. Still, this is far better than your 80 meter amateurs.

I've actually got a bunch of slings and I've been doing it regularly for about a month now (and it rocks), and I can easily get a hundred metres with non-aerodynamic rocks. Ancient people used to be quite proficient slingers, and would have either chosen well-shaped rocks from streams or lakes, or would have crafted clay or lead shot.

Its hard to imagine, but I've done this. You can sling a bullet so far you can't even see where it lands. I have no idea how far my own sling bullets were going once they got past 150 meters, and thats when I got some specialised ammo. And I've been doing this a month.

Professional slingers would have easily been able to manage 300 meters, with levy slingers at least 150. I've changed the ranges to more accurately represent this weapon.


What I'll probably do in the future:

Sort out your Armour, Defence, Shield values. The TW engines are, frankly, a bit dumb, and 'defence' should really be renamed 'agility'. As in, if you're stood in a phalanx and you've got very heavy armour and a massive shield, should be zero.

This value is ignored by archery fire, so what this then does is, as the heavily-armed Greeks found, archery doesn't do much against heavily armoured troops, while light troops can still be somewhat effective until the ranged units are trained upon them. This is the main difference between the two, as well as unarmoured troops moving faster (which you already have).

The defence values can simply be added to armour and shield values equally, and you'll notice that the heavy troops take less heat from ranged units. But this is for another time.


Enjoy all,

Sargon

[Apollyon]

What build is this designed for? I may give this a go.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

What build is this designed for? I may give this a go.

No idea, I just downloaded the latest version from the download link the other day.

Zarax: Bows had a range of 99, slings 80. And I'm afraid the sling was effective at much longer ranges, but I don't have time to go into it now. Please try looking up the Anabasis, and see what Xenophon, an ancient soldier who witnessed their use, has to say. You'll also note that Xenophon states that the Greeks had serious problems with the Persian slingers, archers and cavalry because of their speed - the heavily-armoured Greeks just couldn't do anything about them. They were forced to form companies of cavalry and slingers to be able to fight back. You're thinking of Marathon, and the reason the Greeks reached the Persian archers is because they were on a beach with nowhere to retreat too. In most situations, the infantry couldn't just blithely charge the archers and expect to engage.

I do actually do slinging myself, and I would be very, very reluctant to be hit by a sling bullet over any amount of distance. I've seen some of the chunks we've taken out of wooden targets, and I can honestly say I can't imagine a situation where it wouldn't be a serious problem.

[Zarax]

Hello all,

Just got hold of this after the XGM. Great mods, the pair, but a few historical inaccuracies that I figure I'd take a crack at, and a few misunderstandings about the Rome engine that I'll address at some point.

If I've done this correctly, I've uploaded a modified export_desc_unit, and just download it into your data folder - I've changed stats, nothing more.

1. Everyone has 2 hps.

I've done this on every sub-mod I've done for Rome and Med II, and it works a charm. Suddenly, you can see the ebb and flow of a battle without watching your guys just get mullered by walking near an enemy unit, and it really comes into breaking them rather than just grinding them into the dirt. Far more historical.

Be careful with 2hp. Combat in XC is considerably slower than in XGM 1hp due to weapon lethality being basically halved.

2. Ranged units have been improved.

To balance all units having 2 hit points, archers have been given a +4 damage boost, and slingers a +2 boost. I know it sounds arbitrary, but I've tested it for a long time in other mods, and it seems to be the best balance. Ranged units still have a great effect, but don't simply dominate over infantry.

Ranged units in XC are balanced differently: They do have decent attack but their range is shorter, to represent the realistic effective range rather than the theoretical maximum.

This allow you to counter them with infantry like it has been done historically if needed (hoplites would run to get closer).

3. Slings actually go further than bows.

I'm not sure why, but all your slingers seem to have an 80m range. This is quite bizarre, as every historical source stresses their extreme range. Ancient sources give us ranges of 600 metres as a max range, however modern reproduction can only manage 477 metres. Still, this is far better than your 80 meter amateurs.

I've actually got a bunch of slings and I've been doing it regularly for about a month now (and it rocks), and I can easily get a hundred metres with non-aerodynamic rocks. Ancient people used to be quite proficient slingers, and would have either chosen well-shaped rocks from streams or lakes, or would have crafted clay or lead shot.

Its hard to imagine, but I've done this. You can sling a bullet so far you can't even see where it lands. I have no idea how far my own sling bullets were going once they got past 150 meters, and thats when I got some specialised ammo. And I've been doing this a month.

Professional slingers would have easily been able to manage 300 meters, with levy slingers at least 150. I've changed the ranges to more accurately represent this weapon.

Slings already go further than bows. Regular slingers outrange western archers and professional ones outrange everything except the best nomadic bows.
Again, this has been done to represent historical effective ranges. If a bullet can travel 300m it doesn't mean that it would be capable to maim or kill at such distance.

What I'll probably do in the future:

Sort out your Armour, Defence, Shield values. The TW engines are, frankly, a bit dumb, and 'defence' should really be renamed 'agility'. As in, if you're stood in a phalanx and you've got very heavy armour and a massive shield, should be zero.

This value is ignored by archery fire, so what this then does is, as the heavily-armed Greeks found, archery doesn't do much against heavily armoured troops, while light troops can still be somewhat effective until the ranged units are trained upon them. This is the main difference between the two, as well as unarmoured troops moving faster (which you already have).

The defence values can simply be added to armour and shield values equally, and you'll notice that the heavy troops take less heat from ranged units. But this is for another time.

That has already been done in XC.
Unarmoured units have considerable defence bonuses compared to ones wearing armour, while heavier armour will cause defence penalties (and phalangites take already extra).

I don't want to demean your efforts but battle balance in XC is considerably different than XGM and porting modifications straight from one mod to the other is likely to cause imbalances.

EDIT:

XC balancing system is also on top of every EDU for reference:

;********************************************************************************
; XGM-XC Mass, Radius, and Lethality Values
;********************************************************************************
;
; Mass
; Skirmisher: 0.7
; Light Infantry: 0.8
; Inferior Phalanx: 0.85
; Regular Infantry: 1.0 - also armoured skirmisher
; Regular Phalanx: 1.05 - also iphicratean hoplite
; Elite Phalanx: 1.25
; Heavy Infantry: 1.2 - also 2h infantry
; Very Heavy: 1.5
; Hoplite: 1.5
; Berserker: 1.8
; Cavalry: 1 (not used)
;
; Radius
; Default 0.4
; Two handed 0.5
; Hoplite 0.3
;
;
;Weapon lethality:
;
;Weapon Value Cost
;
;Dagger 0.1 50
;Club 0.25 25
;Pike 0.285 200
;Iphicratean spear 0.3 150
;Spear 0.325 100
;Axe/Mace 0.35 150
;Short Sword/falx 0.375 200
;Gladius/Falcata 0.4 250
;Long Sword 0.425 300
;2h Sword/Axe 0.45 500/250
;Lance 0.65 150
;
; Min_Delay
; Normal: 25
; Cavalry: 95
;
;**************************************************************************************
;
; Weapon Tech (early list)
; simple (light) spears, axes, javelins, low-level swords units
; blade (heavy) pila, lances, high-level swords
; archery (missile) non-elephant archers
; siege siege weapons
; other slingers, elephants, and some others
;
; Armour levels: first revision, to be reviewed for balance
;
; Armour equipment Value Def Mod Cost
;
; none, no helmet: 0 +2 0
; none, leather cap: 1 +2 50
; leather, no helmet: 2 +2 100
; none, helmet: 3 +2 200
; leather, helmet: 4 +1 300
; padded, helmet: 4 +1 300
; breastplate, leather cap: 4 0 450
; breastplate, helmet: 5 0 500
; light linothorax, helmet: 5 0 600
; linothorax, helmet: 6 0 700
; mail/light scale, no helmet: 6 -1 850
; mail/light scale, helmet: 7 -1 950
; heavy scale, no helmet: 7 -2 1100
; heavy scale/mail, helmet: 8 -2 1200
; barbarian cuirass, helmet: 8 -2 1400
; lorica segmentata, helmet: 8 -1 1200
; mail+breastplate, helmet: 9 -2 1350
; half cuirass, helmet: 9 -2 1500
; muscle cuirass, helmet: 10 -3 1800
; muscle cuirass, horse barding: 11 -2 1800 + horse cost
; composite mail, helmet, chain veil: 12 -3 2000
; heavy scale, hemikataphract horse: 12 -3 1200 + horse cost
; mail, kataphract horse: 14 -4 950 + horse cost
; heavy scale, kataphract horse: 18 -4 1200 + horse cost
;
;
;Shield modifiers: tentative revision, needs detailed research
;
;Shield type Value Def modifier Cost
;
;no shield 0 +2 0
;Thracian pelta 1 +2 30
;Light round shield 2 +2 50
;round shield, iron boss 3 +1 100
;Light thureos 3 +1 100
;thureos, boss/spine 4 0 150
;Wicker shield 4 -1 100
;Aspis/scutum 5 -1 200
;*******************************************************************************
; Atk, defence and morale per class, before modifiers
;*******************************************************************************
;
;Infantry:
;
;Class Level Atk Def Mrl
;
;Garrison 0 3 4 5 ;Not affected by negative modifiers due to already low stats
;Levy 1 4 5 8
;Militia 2 6 7 11
;Regular 3 8 10 14
;Professional 4 10 13 17
;Elite 5 12 15 20
;
;Cavalry: Normal attack values, 3/4 defence
;
;*******************************************************************************
;Stat modifiers
;*******************************************************************************
;Cultural modifiers:
;
;Culture Atk Def Mrl
;
;Barbarian +2 +1 0
;Carthaginian -2 -1 0 ;Civic
;Eastern +1 0 -2
;Egyptian 0 0 -2 ;Machimoi
;Greek 0 +1 0
;Roman 0 0 +1
;Saba +1 0 +2
;
;Role modifiers:
;
;Class Sub-class Atk Def Mrl Lvl
;
;Militia Phalanx 0 -2 -2 0
;Regular Phalanx 0 -2 -1 0
;Professional Phalanx 0 -1 0 0
;Regular Minor Noble 0 0 +2 0
;Regular Fanatic +3 0 +6 0
;Regular Veteran +1 +1 +2 +1
;Levy Skirmisher -2 -2 -2 0 ;morale applies to all, others over levy level
;Regular Iphicratean +1 -1 0 0 ;2nd weapon
;Professional Iphicratean +1 0 0 0 ;2nd weapon
;*******************************************************************************

EDIT2: This seems taken from GammaV2, which is several months old... Try one of the test builds at www.wmwiki.com/hosted/cv/xcfiles to see what the latest development is.

[Zarax]

Take into account that you're using an older build.
In newer ones missiles do behave differently with the ranges I described and I also used Xenophon as inspiration.
Also, take into account that using meters as battlefield range leads to archers sniping troops across half the map which is not realistic either...

For reference, download and install this one: http://www.wmwiki.com/hosted/cv/xcfi...st23072010.exe

[nasher168]

I tried something similar to this. All units have 2HP now. The thing was that I found missiles to be almost useless unless you put the values really high. I'm still balancing stuff, but I've found that having as system where I multiply the values by three works quite well. Missile units do actually kill, but not enough to make them unstoppable bringers of doom. I haven't changed the ranges at all.
Still working out how best to do elephant units and cavalry charges... Currently, elephants are either massacred by missile units to the point that they're useless, or else they're able to annihilate half an army once they close with them.