How to use archers and javelins + Rome>>>ur face

[Jamess14]

First off, I've only recently started playing Roma Surrectum and it's absolutely a great mod. Only annoyances are Assassin's even masters useless at assassinating actual generals and idiotic AI diplomacy but's that RTW issues and not mods.

My questions were on the utility of archers. It seems that javelin throwers have a high arch of firing so they seem not to kill your own troops in the back but as far as archers go..I always seem to have the impression I'm killing of my own troops once the fray starts and sometimes they even make me not flank as I should or delay that cavalry charge needed somewhere. Do you actually bring any archers along? Deploying them on flanks isn't much better for me as they get promptly chased by enemy cav or what not....


Another issue is the Roman Legionnaires. Is there a non roman unit capable of facing these head on other than the bothersome phalangites? Using phalanxes kills me faster than smoking cigarettes

I've tried putting one unit of Spartan Hoplites against a Preatorian Cohort on Grassy Flatlands, one on one... Preatorians owned them with more than 100 men left. Tried putting Dii Swordsmen with Dacian Javelins behind against a regular Legion(mid powered). The result..Legion routed both units. How do you contend with the Romans?
Don't just say flank them, as Romans do that just as well also

[Nolthra]

I usually prefer to use archers myself. I set my army up on a hill and wait for them to attack so I can kill off a good 20-30% of them before I engage in melee. Peltasts work well too but I prefer to knock them off at a distance. Also City/Armored Hoplites do great against the pale skinned masses if used correctly. Take guard mode off and charge them before they can unleash their volley and you should be alright. Keep a few units in reserve and be sure to kill their sissy lil leaders asap. Besides that...cheap units like peltasts are good to soak up the damage from their javelins and be sure to use the terrain to your advantage. Good luck.

[Jamess14]

Hehe, seems you're lucky with hill placement. I usually(like everytime) start on the downslope and usually have to climb up and more often then not am met with the enemy before the summit. This is for steep terrain.

[DarthLazy]

depends on faction.

_________ = line infantry that stands really close together (put on guard mode 2/3/4 men deep)

^ = Ur elites or shock infantry that messes up the enemys formation (Dii warriors, Elite African infantry,chosen axemen, german/gaul armoured swords)


p = Peltasts / Archers

^ ^ ^
p p p ^ ^ ________________________ ^ ^ p p

p p p p p

Cav on flanks as usual. Trik is to draw them in, sinceit guard mode, ur units wont get tired, and WILL hold formation. If the enemys line is longer than yours,(i.e outnumbered) than just thin it out. keep general close at all times for the morale boost. They dont usually reqruit praetorians so its not a problem. Roman Cavalry stinks like 10 year old rotting corpses so you have a free run behind their lines. Dont use use peltasts until you are behind the enemy lind and are certain they will hit.

One unit particularly good at this is the Caetrati light Infantry, their melee stats are decent while they are light,fsat, and have pilum type javelins.

Archers on

[Hakomar]

I find javelin and pilum equipped infantry quite good at destroying units before you send in your infantry/use archers.

[DarthLazy]

The enemy army is Roman, so they are gonna have wayyy more javelins than you which can wipe you out in an instant. solution is to charge immedietly so they dont have the chance.

[Invigilator]

Trying to beat Roman legionaries with your own heavy infantry isn't a good idea. That's like trying to beat Eastern cataphracts with your own heavy cavalry: you're going up against their best strength.

The Romans have the best heavy infantry, so exploit your advantage in other areas. Use more mobile units like skirmishers and ranged cavalry if your faction has lots of those, or flank with heavy cavalry if your faction has an advantage in that area. If you play as a barbarian faction it is going to be more difficult, but barbarians should be able to significantly outnumber and outflank Roman forces.

Think about it from the perspective of playing as the Romans: what kind of enemy army would you most regret fighting against? Not an enemy army composed of heavy infantry; those would be some of the most straightforward to beat.

Of course, never fight on terrain favourable to the enemy and always try to make them attack at their own disadvantage.

But if you just want to fight Romans with your own heavy infantry on an even playing field, then yeah, you're going to lose. But that's historically accurate, as the Romans had the best heavy infantry.

Remember that Hannibal defeated the Romans successively despite having inferior heavy infantry. And when Hannibal was finally defeated, he was relying far too much on his inferior heavy infantry, though there wasn't much he could do about that of course.

[DarthLazy]

I disagree, the historical fault of the carthaginian doctrine was that they avoided open ground, thus, their superior cavalry didnt have room to maneuver. Open ground works best against legions IMHO . since they were MADE to fight in the hilly terrain of Italy. I didnot say to beat their infantry wiht yours, just they should HOLD THE LINE. thats what hannibal did. Just stretch your line. Guard mode works wonders at this. and almost all factions have better cavalry than the romans.

[Invigilator]

I disagree, the historical fault of the carthaginian doctrine was that they avoided open ground, thus, their superior cavalry didnt have room to maneuver. Open ground works best against legions IMHO . since they were MADE to fight in the hilly terrain of Italy. I didnot say to beat their infantry wiht yours, just they should HOLD THE LINE. thats what hannibal did. Just stretch your line. Guard mode works wonders at this. and almost all factions have better cavalry than the romans.

Plenty of foreign heavy infantry can hold the line against legionaries. I've done it with thorakitai, for one. Of course they aren't going to hold it forever, but if you have a slight numerical advantage they'll do well enough. And if you have a really deep formation they should hold just fine.

[Centaurion]

I disagree, the historical fault of the carthaginian doctrine was that they avoided open ground, thus, their superior cavalry didnt have room to maneuver. Open ground works best against legions IMHO . since they were MADE to fight in the hilly terrain of Italy. I didnot say to beat their infantry wiht yours, just they should HOLD THE LINE. thats what hannibal did. Just stretch your line. Guard mode works wonders at this. and almost all factions have better cavalry than the romans.

I thought it was quite the opposite. Romans favoured open ground as they had room to deploy their legions.

[Scipio praeditus]

-Open fire with archers placed behind your center, don't use burning arrows.
-Move the cavalry around the enemy flanks, but don't move them so close as to get charged or shot at.
-Cease arrow fire when the enemy is about three unit depths in front of your main line, or direct fire at cavalry\skirmishers in the rear.
-Soak up pila with a few skirmishers that have skirmish mode turned off, are placed two unit depths in front of the main line and are stretched to cover the entire line.
-Let the legionaires charge your skirmish line.
-Concentrate all archers and reserve skirmishers behind your left flank.
-Take out enemy cavalry and skirmish units with your cavalry, but make sure those units are not being shot at by your archers.
-Withdraw your skirmish line behind the main line and at the same time charge with the infantry.
-Move your archers and reserve skirmishers around their right flank (left from your perspective) and open fire into the rear of the legionaires starting on the closest side of their line.
-Rout weakened cohorts with a cavalry charge in the rear while directing arrow fire further along the line.

This tactic works against almost any infantry based army, and also displays the best use of archers and skirmishers.

[Jamess14]

@Lazy

As a flanking formation, I love the one you drew up. Though I can think of a problem with it in terms of enemy AI and going against romans. First when deploying flankers a bit further than the line itself I find that it will draw some enemy units towards it, so they'll rush the flankers. Other thing is a thin line in GUARD mode seems just to wait for it to be shredded to pieces by the pilae. Seems like they should be charging(but still in guard)

Oh yeah Inviligator made an interesting observation. Since I haven't played the Romans since vanilla I was wondering, what kind of matchups do some of you Roman players hate most against the AI? When I played the Parthians, Romans were a piece of cake to take out...but hehe can't play those all the time So other than HA what enemy faction or strengths do Roman players hate going against?

[Jean=A=Luc]

Just surrender to Rome and enjoy the increased trade, prosperity and security.

[Nolthra]

Just surrender to Rome and enjoy the increased trade, prosperity and security.

How could you say such a heretical statement? We shall fight the dark side all night! We shall fight them throughout the morning! If we are not victorious...let no man come back alive!

Anyways, Rome seems to have gotten easier to destroy on H/VH...that or I am a better general when drunk. I know you said you did not want to use phalanx style hoplites but here it goes. 3-4 Phalanx Hoplites, 6 Militia Hoplites, 2 City Hoplites, 2 Archers, 2-3 Peltasts, a General + change. Used that on my Massilian campaign and Rome is down to 2 cities that are defended by 2+ stacks a pop so I am leaving them be. K/D ratio for that army when I used it earlier was 3-1 I believe. Those were city battles also before I forget to mention it. However you choose to destroy the demonic pale skins, will be fine with the rest of us...though some pictures of a heroic victory or 2 would not go amiss.


Almost forgot! Switched my opinion from archers>peltasts to use em both! Long range fire arrows for morale damage or regular for slaughter. Peltasts for up close carnage when they break formation charging. Enjoy the game.

[rory o'kane]

How could you say such a heretical statement? We shall fight the dark side all night! We shall fight them throughout the morning! If we are not victorious...let no man come back alive!

I posit to you this scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian:

And that's set in Judea - a relatively urbanised area of the Empire. The contrast is even greater in the west for areas like Gaul and Hispania - introducing the very concept of the "urbs" (city) as a logical expansion and regularisation of pre-existing Celtic oppida, allowing for urbanization with all the benefits which follow for both provincials and the central Roman authorities.

[DarthLazy]

@Centuarion, No, the romans after seeing the success of the Manipular formation when emplyed the by Samnites in the hilly landscape of Italy, dropped their old hoplite Centered ways and adopted the Manipular Formation. I highly suggest reading books by Adrian Goldsworthy on this topic. But if you dont have the time, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army

[Themis]

every post i read from you rory... makes me think you were born 2000 years late :p

[Titus Maximius Thongus]

meatshields are the way forward (literally)

[Jamess14]

Titus by that you mean: leave the skirms in the front to soak up pila and the charge?