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  1. #1
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Sylvania and fear

    Hello!
    I can't understand how is possible that the phoenix guard frighten nearby troops and there aren't troops in Sylvania with that skill. They are undead!! It is the most important property in WFB and all of them should cause "fear".
    Has anyone thought about it?
    Sorry about my english!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolwen View Post
    Hello!
    I can't understand how is possible that the phoenix guard frighten nearby troops and there aren't troops in Sylvania with that skill. They are undead!! It is the most important property in WFB and all of them should cause "fear".
    Has anyone thought about it?
    Sorry about my english!
    It was done for balance purposes. Think about it. If you had a full stack where all 20 units caused fear and then they were also immune to fear and then they recovered a large proportion of their casualties after battle. They would be a unstoppable force. That may work for WFB but in a medieval 2 game it results in everyone playing that one faction and everyone QQing about how ed up and imbalanced the game would be.

  3. #3
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    If it worked for WFB then it should work for M2TW. Just decrease the defense value of the most units or increase the cost. I think that the fear is a basic trait for sylvania

  4. #4

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolwen View Post
    If it worked for WFB then it should work for M2TW. Just decrease the defense value of the most units or increase the cost. I think that the fear is a basic trait for sylvania
    No, it won't work for M2TW because of how the combat engine works. What works for the gander does not work for the goose in this situation. M2TW's combat engine is very clear on how morale and fear works it's not ambigious like in WFB where a fear causing unit's target can make a rolling save and stay sane. In M2 if a unit causes fear it causes fear there is no saving throw. It was need to preserve balance. If you want Sylvania to universally cause fear your gonna need to strip them of all their other perks such as zero upkeep and that don't make sense to me.

    If they don't cause fear it matters not. I mean after all they have morale lock, what more do you want in this faction?

  5. #5
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    If they don't cause fear it matters not. I mean after all they have morale lock, what more do you want in this faction?
    Then they should have at least more frightening units than the rest of the armies. Who causes fear right now in sylvania? The blood dragons? Just one unit in the whole army. That's not fair! The phoenix guard causes fear as they do in WFB...
    Regardless I still thinking that they all should cause fear.
    Last edited by Kolwen; July 21, 2010 at 10:14 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolwen View Post
    Then they should have at least more frightening units than the rest of the armies. Who causes fear right now in sylvania? The blood dragons? Just one unit in the whole army. That's not fair! The phoenix guard causes fear as they do in WFB...
    Regardless I still thinking that they all should cause fear.
    Well if you feel that bad about it why don't you simply mod the feature into your Sylvanian units?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Kolwen

    Download Real Warhammer mod

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=336405

    or download this mod:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=324045

    There is a well-presented. VC does not do the training bags. They are a challenge.

  8. #8
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Well if you feel that bad about it why don't you simply mod the feature into your Sylvanian units?
    Unfortunately I do not have knowledge about mods to make my own.
    I don't want you to misunderstand me, I like CoW, and this suggestion is not necessary to me to have fun with the mod, but I think that this change could improve it.

    Kolwen

    Download Real Warhammer mod

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=336405

    or download this mod:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=324045

    There is a well-presented. VC does not do the training bags. They are a challenge.
    Im using the Real Warhammer mod, and it is great, but dont solve it (by now).
    I don't think that Sylvania need to be better. I think that they are good right now, it is just a suggestion to make CoW more faithful to the lore. Because of that I think that is this feature is applied, sylvania could need a punishment in their point cost or something like that.
    Last edited by Kolwen; July 22, 2010 at 05:29 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolwen View Post
    Unfortunately I do not have knowledge about mods to make my own.
    I don't want you to misunderstand me, I like CoW, and this suggestion is not necessary to me to have fun with the mod, but I think that this change could improve it.

    Im using the Real Warhammer mod, and it is great, but dont solve it (by now).
    I don't think that Sylvania need to be better. I think that they are good right now, it is just a suggestion to make CoW more faithful to the lore. Because of that I think that is this feature is applied, sylvania could need a punishment in their point cost or something like that.
    Ok, that's good. Well for future reference allow me to show you how to add or drop attributes from units since you'll need to know this for future endeavors. We'll use your former request as a example and then I'll show how upkeep can be modified:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type Phoenix guard
    dictionary Phoenix_guard ; Гвардия Феникса
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    ;accent High_elfs
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier Phoenix_guard, 50, 0, 1.5
    mount_effect elephant +2
    attributes sea_faring, can_withdraw, pike, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted
    move_speed_mod 1.1
    formation 0.8, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square, phalanx
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr spear, long_pike
    stat_sec 9, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr short_pike, spear
    stat_pri_armour 7, 9, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, -2, -2, -1
    stat_mental 18, disciplined, highly_trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 2250, 450, 100, 100, 2250, 1, 320 ;15$
    armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 5, 6
    armour_ug_models Phoenix_guard, Phoenix_guard_ug1, Phoenix_guard_ug2, Phoenix_guard_ug3
    ownership england
    recruit_priority_offset 20


    Above, is the EDU entry for the phoenix guard. As the highlighted attributes show this unit causes fear in foot and cavalry troops. If you wanted to add this to all the Sylvanian units you would simply cut and paste

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    frighten_foot, frighten_mounted


    at the end of the attribute list for all Sylvanian units in the EDU. This has to be done one by one. Make sure to add a ", " before the two new attributes unless there is one there already.

    Now you want to modify the point cost for custom/multiplayer battles, right? That to can be done from the EDU to in fact it's a few lines below where you did most of your work. Here's how it works:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    type Black guard Morr ;WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8
    dictionary black_guard_morr ; Рыцари имперской гвардии
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    banner faction main_cavalry
    banner holy crusade_cavalry
    soldier Black_guard_morr, 25, 0, 1.5
    mount morr armoured horse
    mount_effect elephant +2
    attributes sea_faring, knight, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, legionary_name
    formation 1.5, 1.5, 3 ,3, 4, square, wedge
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 9, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 13, 5, 4, metal
    stat_sec_armour 3, 3, metal
    stat_heat 2
    stat_ground 0, -3, -4, -2
    stat_mental 16, normal, highly_trained, lock_morale
    stat_charge_dist 50
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 2500, 500, 100, 100, 2500, 2, 1000 ;23$
    armour_ug_levels 6
    armour_ug_models Black_guard_morr
    ownership france
    recruit_priority_offset 20


    You'll see I highlighted the line for stat_costs. Now your probably wondering "But Outlaw what are the numbers on that line for? I see them in every mod I play." Here's how it breaks down. Stat cost as you can see contains nine separate numbers from left to right the numbers are for the following:

    1st value: Number of turns needed to build
    2nd value: Cost of unit to build
    3rd value: Cost of upkeep
    4th value: Cost of upgrading weapons
    5th value: Cost of upgrading armor
    6th value: Cost for custom battles
    7th value: Unknown
    8th value: Unknown
    9th value: Unknown

    So go to stat cost and count over to the 6th number and change that to whatever you want. Please do note if you change multiplayer applicable values in the EDU you will not be able to find or play with people whose EDU does not match yours. Depending on what you change problems will range from their and your games not appearing on the list to a crash to desktop whenever you edit the EDU and intend to play multiplayer always make a backup and always share a copy with your friends.

  10. #10
    The Holy Pilgrim's Avatar In Memory of Blackomur
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Yes you do

  11. #11
    Werebear's Avatar For Mother Russia
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Quote Originally Posted by The Holy Pilgrim View Post
    Yes you do
    no, after EDU or EDB changes you can just load save

  12. #12
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Well, I tried some custom battles against sylvania, without changing the cost of their units and I lost everytime. However my troops didn't run since they were very weakened. I will continue testing with new tactics. Maybe I should increase their recruitment cost.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    So the others were right about overpowering and the mechanism of fear... have you considered for example giving the lesser undead chant? Boosting morale of nearby troops does nothing for them since most of them have locked morale but it does lower enemy morale, which odd to make them break easier but not automatically like frighten. Frighten can be reserved for the higher-end units?

  14. #14
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Ok, I think that I am success in balancing the sylvanian tropps.
    I have lowered the skeletons armor to 6, and I achieved a victory against them.
    It was very challenging, and I lost a lot of my army, but only one of my units fled from combat.
    What dou you think?
    Image
    Last edited by Kolwen; July 23, 2010 at 01:24 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    Quote Originally Posted by isilendil View Post
    no, after EDU or EDB changes you can just load save
    I made similar changes in my EDU for Broken Crescent and I ended up restarting the campaign and all I did was change the first stat cost. So yeah, you can just continue but I'd recommend restarting.

    BTW, how are you Isilendil? And how is the rest of the team?

  16. #16
    Kolwen's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Sylvania and fear

    In my last game I won even with armor 8. Anyone is interested in trying the balancing?
    Here is the EDU file.

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