New guy needs some help :P

[glasstea]

I'm quite new to total war games and I was pretty excited when i found out about the host of mods available for romeTW. i started off with RTR platinum but quickly migrated to extended realism

however...i started the campaign as Rome on M/M...and subsequently got destroyed against Pyhhrus.

Phalanxes seem to absolutely crush me and I can't seem to find a good way to beat them.
I didn't have as much trouble in RTRE;; so im wondering if it's just pyhrus's army that so powerful (from command and upgrade?) or if im just a complete tactics newbie

The strategy I used during the first go at Pyhhrus was to was to engage him frontally and then outflank him with cavalry and then charge the phalanxes from behind. I used skirmishers to deal with the elephants. All in all i managed to take out half of his army while i lost something like 1100~ of my own; perhaps because two units of my cavalry were easily routed by the thessalian cav. I retreated and brought down Quintus to attack next turn.

So i did this again...but this time i had enough soldiers to outflank some of his phalanxes with infantry...and it proved almost disastrous. even sandwiched between two units of infantry the phalanx held it's own no problem until i was forced to clean it up with my cav. Well I did win...but only after sustaining 350~ more casualties.

I'm not sure to what extent extended realism is more difficult...and if it is the new difficulty im dealing with or simply a lack of tactical understanding. thanks to anyone that replies.

[Mogan]

The point of ExRM is to be historically correct, and bear in mind that the Romans lost 2 battles before managing a draw. When you play as the Romans, expect to loose battles. But, do also remember: it's easier for you to replenish troops than for Phyrrus.

Good luck, have fun, and may the superior Roman logistics and discipline be with you.

[Sardaukar One]

I've read posts before about how hard it is to take down Pyrrhus. I didn't really believe that it was that hard. Its been a very long time since i've last played with the Romans.
So I started a Roman campaign to see just how difficult it is to take on Pyrrhus. I deployed the main army on the hillside right by Pyrrhus. I swapped out a few troops from this army with units from the nearby cities.
Pyrrhus moved off south. I followed and got him to attack me in between Croton and Tarentum.
Right on the route from Croton to Rhegium.
I had a half stack army move on Tarentum, with the main army blocking Pyrrhus from getting to Tarentum and Pyrrhus attacked. I was able to get on a hill, but it really wasn't that much of an advantage.
I took out his elephants and wiped out the Chaeonian agema. To my suprise, Pyrrhus and the other heavy cavalry units charged my line(the Marsipans) head on. I was able to kill Pyrrhus and inflict some casualties.
But a lot of my front line non-roman troops buckled and then routed. And this infected my more reliable Roman troops. The Hastatii routed followed by the Princeps. Only the Triarii held.
While I had destroyed most of his elite units and cavalry, the Epirote pike units were largely unscathed as were most of the Epirote missile troops. In turn, most of my army was decimated. Not good.

There were a number of things that stood out.

1) Lack of missile units i.e. archers or slingers. An especially big problem if you are going to attack Pyrrhus.
2) The non-roman heavy infantry are pretty useless against Pyrrhus' army.
3) The available cavalry is no good one on one vs the Epirote cavalry.

So, I started over again looking to correct these deficiencies. I moved my faction leader and faction heir to command the army right near Pyrrhus. I moved them onto the elevated position right next to Pyrrhus.
They are the best cavalry units I have and the largest.
I moved all my hastati, princeps and triarii units south and recruited two units of slingers. I built roads etc, but in hindsight, I should have spent all the money on units.
After a couple of turns, I was able to interchange the crap Italian units(marsi swords etc) with hastati, princeps and triarii.
The army was as follows.

1 x Faction Leader
1 x Faction Heir
4 x Hastatii
4 x Princeps
2 x Triarii
2 x Funtidores(slingers)
2 x Velites
2 x Italian Skirmisher
2 x Equites Cavalry

It took me about four turns to get this together. And I didn't move my army off the heights until I got this lot together. Pyrrhus hovered around Croton.
I was in the hole financially to the tune of about 30 k by the time I engaged him.
I moved of south and I repeated the same strategy. I interposed by army in the same place as before. The results of the battle were drastically different.
I deployed a line of Hastati and Princeps. The Triarii as a reserve. The skirmishers in front, then behind the line of Hastatii and Princeps as the enemy advanced. The elephants went after the velites and got smoked by javelins. The epirote cavalry tried to get around both flanks.
I used one unit of triarii and my faction heir to deal with the Molossian Hippeis. My faction leader and some well aimed javelins dealt with the Thessalians. And all this without the phalanx having having yet to engage my troops.
I used the slingers to pick off the Tarentine cavalry and the enemy missile troops when they came into range. It was especially fun mowing down the Chaoenian Agema. My right flank Triarii and Faction heir finished them off. With no more heavy cavalry left, the AI seemed to have opted to use the Chaoenian Agema to flank me.
Pyrrhus advanced with the phalanx and took heavy casualties from javelins and pilums.
Because my triarii and family members had defeated his cavalry, I had won the flanks.
The Epirote line engaged. My line held, but was getting the worse of it.
Pyrrhus, with one man left moved behind his line. I pushed my cavalry and triarii units forward on both sides. I was trying to get Pyrrhus who moved back into his line. One of my javelin units then got him.
My triari on both flanks were already attacking the end units and defeating them handily. And the reliable roman troops in the middle, though getting the worse of it, were buying me enough time to win on the flanks.
I launched my faction leader and the two units of Equites at the epirote missile troops. They broke and fled.
I pulled most of my cavalry back to the main battle behind the Epirote units. and the added threat of being surrounded took its effect. I was rolling up the Epirote line from both ends anyway, and the Epirote pikemen started routing. Slowly, then more quickly as their buddies buckled and fled.
And it was game, set and match. I lost about 300 men in total.

I play on VH/VH.

I'd add that the Pyrrhic army is very tough. It would be a different story if I had to attack them.
My opinion is that you have to get them to attack you. Either way, get all your non-roman heavy infantry units out of the army and use only hastatii, princeps and triarii. And recruit at least two units of slingers.
I probably should have recruited more slingers, but two units was enough in this scenario.
Once you have dealt with the main Epirote army under Pyrrhus, its a piece of cake dealing with Epirus.
Also, I was very careful to avoid going up against the Epirote cavalry on even terms. In the battle, I had a unit of triarii to help out a family member vs the Mollosians and I had really laid into the Thessalians with missile fire before my faction leader got them in the flank.
Also, by getting rid of the non-roman heavy infantry units, the Epirote cavalry didn't try to charge any of my line head on as in the first battle.

I'd add that in the very beginning, bulk up the defences at Corfinum. If you are trying to bait Pyrrhus into attacking you on the heights, he may opt to attack Corfinum instead. It has wooden walls and he has a unit of elephants. Keep a couple of javelin units and two heavy infantry units there till he heaves off.

I'm about 40 k in the hole, but Tarentum and Croton are now at my mercy and about to be sieged.
So hopefully I'll start to make some cash.
I'm actually going to wrap up the Roman campaign. I don't care for them that much.

Here are some pics. Check out the results at the end.

When you play as the Romans, expect to loose battles.

I don't lose battles.

[Sardaukar One]

I tried to upload some pics of me whooping Pyrrhus but it wouldn't let me do it.

I have fraps, but how do I post the pic? Tried to do it from my PC but no go.


Pyrrhus can be taken in one battle. I just did it.
Gotta get him to attack you though. Which doesn't seem that hard actually.
Did take me about 4 turns to manipulate it to play out that way.

[Quinn Inuit]

Welcome to the forums, Glasstea!

Yeah, be prepared to be smacked around occasionally in this mod. Especially in those opening battles, which are designed to be as tough for you as they were IRL for the Romans. Just hit Pyrrhus hard and try to weaken his elite troops.

As for the phalanx, which unit was that, and what'd you have it sandwiched between? Most phalanx units die easily from the back, but the elites are another matter. And if it was sandwiched between hastati, there's part of your problem.

[Caesar Augustus]

I'm quite new to total war games and I was pretty excited when i found out about the host of mods available for romeTW. i started off with RTR platinum but quickly migrated to extended realism

however...i started the campaign as Rome on M/M...and subsequently got destroyed against Pyhhrus.

Phalanxes seem to absolutely crush me and I can't seem to find a good way to beat them.
I didn't have as much trouble in RTRE;; so im wondering if it's just pyhrus's army that so powerful (from command and upgrade?) or if im just a complete tactics newbie

The strategy I used during the first go at Pyhhrus was to was to engage him frontally and then outflank him with cavalry and then charge the phalanxes from behind. I used skirmishers to deal with the elephants. All in all i managed to take out half of his army while i lost something like 1100~ of my own; perhaps because two units of my cavalry were easily routed by the thessalian cav. I retreated and brought down Quintus to attack next turn.

So i did this again...but this time i had enough soldiers to outflank some of his phalanxes with infantry...and it proved almost disastrous. even sandwiched between two units of infantry the phalanx held it's own no problem until i was forced to clean it up with my cav. Well I did win...but only after sustaining 350~ more casualties.

I'm not sure to what extent extended realism is more difficult...and if it is the new difficulty im dealing with or simply a lack of tactical understanding. thanks to anyone that replies.

The initial struggle against Pyrrhus is supposed to be just that. It's one of the last time that Rome faced a genuine threat to it's existence. With that in mind, here are a few pointers for the initial 4 turns, which should have you making money and able to beat Pyrrhus.

Turn 1

• Use your full stack to fight Pyrrhus. You will lose, but aim to at least take out the elephants and if possible kill Pyrrhus himself if the opportunity presents itself.
• Take the family member in Rome, with the legionary garrison and besiege Arretium or Ariminum.
• Use Quintus to besiege the northern settlement which isn't being besieged by Publius Decius Mus.
• Obviously, ensure that both besieging armies are buidling rams.
• Move the family member from Capua to Rome.
• Move the family member from Paestum to Capua.
• Construct buildings with long build times. Farms are excellent for this. I'd also say not to bother building anything in Corfinium as you're probably going to lose it to Epirus. Make sure you start building an Academy in Rome, and upgrade the government in Capua.
• Get the survivors from your battle with Pyrrhus to the north. Don't besiege either city with them, leave that to Decius Mus and Quintus.

Turn 2

• If the AI haven't attempted a sally from the northern settlements, attack and take them now.
• Use the survivors to replace the casualties in your northern armies (merge units with them).
• Leave a very small garrison in both of your newly conquered northern cities. They've very loyal and there is a rebel settlement between you and Gaul, so you're unlikely to be attacked for a little while.
• Merge the rest of your northern armies into 1 stack, under Publius Decius Mus.

Turn 3

• Pyrrhus and his army by now definitely should've besieged and taken a settlement (most likely to be Corfinium, though they may also have tried their luck at Paestum).
• Get your northern army to besiege whichever settlement Pyrrhus and his army are holed up in. Build a few rams.
• You should continue building economic buildings with your income. Again, I'd recommend farms. Arretium and Ariminum can both build ports, so they would be an excellent choice there.
• Your diplomat (who starts the game near Massilia for some reason), should be going round securing trade rights from the beginning. Key partners for your early game are Gaul, Illyria, and Carthage. The Greek Cities ae useful too, though you will need to get them to agree to a ceasefire first*.

Turn 4

• Assualt the city where Pyrrhus' army is hiding. Destroy them utterly. Enjoy the revenge.
• Destroy any Epirote buildings in the settlement, and begin constructing your own economic buildings.
• Your re-conquered settlement will be very loyal to you, so again only a small garrison is required.
• I would suggest retraining your troops now. Remember that only Roman units can be retrained in Rome (Roman infantry can also be retrained in Capua, but not cavalry).

Turn 5 and beyond

• Bear in mind that war is going to come from the north at some point, you will need an army stationed there to protect yourself.
• Epirus still have two settlements in Italy, they will need to be taken out to reduce the threat. These settlements will be slightly harder to hold on to, as there is a culture penalty in effect.
• Appolonia can be a handy settlement to hold, but you will need to assess whether you think it's worth risking war with Greece (Illyria have never tried to take it off me).

A couple of tips for taking on phalanxes:

• Engage them from the front with your heavy infantry. Principes, Triarii and Picene hoplites are great for this.
• Use your Hastati and light infantry to counter any supporting troops.
• Cavalry should be used to eliminate the enemy cavlry force, then the skirmishers. Once they're either dead or routed, it's time for the critical blow against the phalanx. Get your cavalry contingent lined up behind the phalanx, then charge!
• Skirmishers should be used to attack phalanxes either from the flanks or rear for maximum effect.

Enjoy!

* Why does Rome start at war with the Greek Cities? Is this something that hasn't been changed since RTR Platinum?

[Caesar Augustus]

I've never been able to get him to attack me. If he did then I know I could beat him. It's the cavalry which are the biggest obstacle, but that's going to be revised in 4.0.

As for the pics, you should be able to upload them using the manage attachments button when you post an advanced reply (rather than the quick reply). I noticed that I had some issues uploading images directly to TWC a couple of days ago, try putting them on to photobucket and then linking it to TWC from there.

[JaNuZ99]

Pyrrhus can be defeated and killed in the first turn, if you just use some simple tactics

B4 i begin let me explain how i group thing, i find its helpful

the first cohort is 1 hastati,1principep,1 triarii,1 vetlite group them in the republican formation and have them be your left wing. the second cohort is the same as the first, but that group is your center-left wing. the third cohort should be your spermen unit on the right wing of your army. the next is the two equites units in colum formation on your left, guarding the flanks and you are to move them as your ale troops advance, same for your italic calvary,but they are on the right side covering your spearmen units.

1. Don't use your calvary against his Thessalonian calvary, use the Picene and Marsi heavy spearmen to take on his calvary (which is usually on the right, so have your spearmen on your right wing) and have to groups of calvary on each wing of your army moving as your ale troops advance (it keep the AI from attacking head on part way) when the enemy Calvary come to attack you, he enemy general will be there, engange him with spearmen, and have you italic calvary attack him, you'll take casualties, but he and his other calvary units that will join in will soon die. and now you are rid of the enemy general

2. Use your skirmishers to take out as many Epiriots as you can, forget the Pezoi (they route quite easily when caught from behind, not so for the Epiriots)

3. Become a roman commander and use basic battle strategy, first you send in the ALAE units in the front to take most of the volley from Pyrrhus's Cretans THEN you send in the ROMAN units later on.

4. When using the ale units remember to group them, if you move groups together the AI tends to move back and give ground, or they send there calvary and archers (this is where you have to outmaneuver them so your spearmen take out there calvary fast and their Cretans are killed by your equities or your skirmisher do that.

5. Once the enemy HEAVY calvary (the Tarentine missile calvary tends to hang back to the left side of Pyrrhus's army in the forest) send equities to engage the Tarentine calvary and use your alae units (IN GUARD FORM) to engage the spearmen from the front.

6. Once you take out the Tarentine calvary your equities are now in a position to charge the back of the enemy,now you'll see a very different battle, the enemy is purely spearman units now,if the elephants are still around, send your skirmishers and they'll be done with fast. Now all you gotta do is have your ale troops AND your roman troops to engage them from the front,

7. attack the units with charges from the back and retreat, attack again ,attack another enemy unit from behind with your calvary.

8. By now the enemy is tired, your roman troops which you have not used all battle (remember your ale troops were in front,taking casualties, fighting the enemy, your roman troops hanged backed)

9. You'll see that with the general dead (Pyrrhus tend to get killed when he charges into your spearmen) and your troops from the front and your calvary from behind ,one by one the enemy begins to route, from there on, its all about you hunting them down (When you win, continue to fight and kill as many of them as possible, dont let them escape) and by doing so, on the campaign map the enemy army routes and now you can use this battle tested army to take Arimium or Magna Gracia.

I do this all the time and thus Pyrrhus is no longer of any consequence to me in the game, just a pest that i must remove, the tactics are simple, but the result deadly

[Carados]

Hmmm.

I really don't bother trying to beat Pyrrhus at all in that first battle. In theory, the best way to cause effective casualties is to attack with your skirmishers first and then engage with your infantry. Save some missiles for the elephants. Once the fighting has gone on for a short while you can then go about trying to cause strategic damage on the elephants, Thessalians and Molossians.

If you kill the elephants and engage the cavalry too soon then, should you lose the battle, most of the casualties you cause to these units will recover after the battle. This can be quite annoying with elephants when you destroy the unit straight away but then after the battle you find that all of them have come back to life!! o__o

[JaNuZ99]

^^ i should of made a note that when i put to sue skirmishers i'm referring to my ITALIC skirmisher ONLY and ONE of the two units of Velites for more casualties, you must always have on of the Velites fully stocked to kill the elephants late in the battle (hopefully that way they don't come back)

I'd like to add don't count on the elephants running amok to help, they never seem to crash into the enemy army so its best just to kill them, in case you lose

[leemyster]

With rome first attack one of the two cities north of you, sending all but 1 of your triari to be trashed as well as your weaker troops. Once youve taken one of them go south as by about the 3rd term pyrus would of taken confirtium (i believe).

Wait around another term and you'll see that pyruss's army is split. Take your big stack and thus attack his isolateded units/settlements. Note, if you meet pyrus in battle go out of your way to take him out. 90 extremly strong cavalry (on huge unit settings) alongside the high morale bonus pyruss gives will always make your battles difficult. With him on the field phalanks will not break even if completely surronded.

Note that these do not follow the 'house rules' when playing romans e.g. only fighting with the republican legion set up.

[Seleukos Nikator]

...90 extremly strong cavalry (on huge unit settings) alongside the high morale bonus pyruss gives will always make your battles difficult...

good point.
is there a proposal on which unit scale setting it is optimal to play ExRM?
i've always had this question in mind, but since now forgot to put this question to the forum.

huge unit setting tends to make the battles very long, so i always opt to use the setting below it if starting a new campaign.

[leemyster]

good point.
is there a proposal on which unit scale setting it is optimal to play ExRM?
i've always had this question in mind, but since now forgot to put this question to the forum.

huge unit setting tends to make the battles very long, so i always opt to use the setting below it if starting a new campaign.

I'd say you want to play on Huge as they give the battles an added challenge as well as life. With smaller unit sizes you can tend to be able to manouver troops around an enemy fast but with HUGE it takes a longer time.

Also, it makes seige battles more interesting as one well positioned enemy unit can block a whole army, thus replicating in a sense the confines and adavantage to defenders of a seige battle

[Caesar Augustus]

I love how these type of threads show everyone's strategy. Always gives me loads of new ideas to try

[Sardaukar One]

One problem is the huge deficiency between your cavalry and that of Pyrrhus.
You have to get the Italian cavalry out of your army. They are absolutely useless here.

Another problem is that you have no long range missile troops. And that can hurt you. Having hardly ever played with the Romans, I don't know how well they stand upto missile fire. In hindsight, probably quite well.
At least compared to other units.

I'm not against attacking Pyrrhus, it just seems far more preferable to get him to attack you.
Its more preferable considering the aforementioned problems.

I still think the best way to go is to form an elite army out of Hastati, Princeps and Triarii only as your heavy infantry. Remember, you only need them to deal with the main Epirote army under Pyrrhus.
They won't rout like the others and can hang in their for a bit. And the Epirote cavalry won't charge them head on unlike the Marzipan swordsmen who are apparently asking for it everytime the Epirote heavy cavalry come near them.
And while you are doing this, use some of your starting cash to recruit some slingers. Maybe some artillery to bomb the Epirote troops from a distance?

[JaNuZ99]

I still think the best way to go is to form an elite army out of Hastati, Princeps and Triarii only as your heavy infantry. Remember, you only need them to deal with the main Epirote army under Pyrrhus.
They won't rout like the others and can hang in their for a bit. And the Epirote cavalry won't charge them head on unlike the Marzipan swordsmen who are apparently asking for it everytime the Epirote heavy cavalry come near them.
And while you are doing this, use some of your starting cash to recruit some slingers. Maybe some artillery to bomb the Epirote troops from a distance?

lol S1 i don't think the romans used artillery against Pyrrhus during the Pyrrhic Wars, but even if it unrealistic, to each his own.. but i digress

If you use the Picene Spearmen and heavy Marsi spearmen to go along with the marsi swordsman unit that always seem to get attacked by the enemy calvary then Pyrrhus' calvary are no threat, they'll be cut to ribbons. I i find that alae units are useful becuase why send your elite romans in first? let your allies wear them down, then send in your killing machine to mop up.

* may i add that the italic calvary (in large numbers tho) do a great job of scaring the enemy infantry and holding enemy calvary in one place long enough for your spearmen to arrive,especially when they are attacked from behind, something your Equites don't do,i think

[Sardaukar One]

lol S1 i don't think the romans used artillery against Pyrrhus during the Pyrrhic Wars, but even if it unrealistic, to each his own.. but i digress

Oh I wouldn't use artillery against Pyrrhus either. I was replying to the point of trying different tactics out.
It would seem no one has been able to take Pyrrhus down without losing a battle or two. Till me!

I'm working on photobucket to show as such.

[Sardaukar One]

Here are the pics from me whooping Pyrrhus' arse.

http://s1017.photobucket.com/home/Sa...rOne/allalbums

Being the genius that I am, I loaded the pictures back to front. Or is that front to back?
If you want to watch the pictures in chronological order, start on page 2 at the very last pic and work back from there.

[JaNuZ99]

LOL what are you talkign about , if you read my post i clearly detailed a battle plan where i end up KILLING Pyyrhus AND destorying his army in the FIRST turn, and still having most of my army intact enough to eiether take the magna gracia settlements or to be used to gain Arretium and Ariminium

[Sardaukar One]

LOL what are you talkign about , if you read my post i clearly detailed a battle plan where i end up KILLING Pyyrhus AND destorying his army in the FIRST turn

Dude, its not like i'm trying to rain on your parade. Its not like killing Pyrrhus in the first battle is some great achievement. If you read the other posts here, you would see clearly that killing Pyrrhus and defeating his army in one battle has eluded a number of people.

Your tactics are presumably played on M/M level? I don't think that would work on VH/VH. The fact that you find Italic cavalry useful and I don't, tells me you most likely don't play on VH/VH. They didn't scare diddly squat in my first battle for instance.
Anytime I move them away from my infantry, the Epirote cavalry goes for them. They are weak. And I've tried to find ways to use them and they just aren't worth the unit slots when I can wait a turn or two and exchange them for hastatii, princeps or triarii.
I just used the Equites and my Faction leader and Faction heir for my cavalry. Not that this is ideal, but they are all more reliable than Italian cavalry.

and still having most of my army intact enough to eiether take the magna gracia settlements or to be used to gain Arretium and Ariminium

Which is usually the result when you defeat Pyrrhus and his army.

* may i add that the italic calvary (in large numbers tho) do a great job of scaring the enemy infantry and holding enemy calvary in one place long enough for your spearmen to arrive,especially when they are attacked from behind, something your Equites don't do,i think

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. That you should use three units of Italian cavalry and one or two units of infantry to take out one of the Epirote cavalry units?
Who is getting attacked from behind? Your Italic cavalry, your infantry or the enemy cavalry?
And why can't the Equites do whatever it is you are trying to say here? They are much better than the Italic cavalry. Though they are still not very good.
Large numbers of Italic cavalry scaring enemy infantry? Isn't that the same with any type of heavy cavalry units? Or any melee units for that matter? Presumably they are scaring the Epirote light troops?
Some of those pike units would turn em into mincemeat. Even if they attacked from the flank and rear.

You talk about being realistic, but the Romans didn't fight Pyrrhus relying on their cavalry. If they did, Pyrrhus would have conquered Italy over a long weekend.
The Romans relying on Italic cavalry just isn't realistic. But to each his own.