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Thread: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

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  1. #1

    Default Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Uhh, is there a way to get this mod without annoying "rebalance" attempts?

    I hate it how the pikemen got nerfed, now a heavy cavalry charge can break the formations.. While in reality horses would be way too scared to charge headon into 4 ranks of pikes. Only way these horsemen could break a pike formation would be if the pikemen started routing b4 the charge or didn't setup and brace themselves properly...

    European battlefields were dominated by pikemen and later musketeers after the Swiss revolutionized combat. There were special anti-pike units even...

    So why are pikemen so weak?

    This is just 1 example, I don't like the "rebalancing" in general.

    I only want "real recruitment" (I don't like to have so many elite units) but I can't find download link.

    PS. http://www.mtw2.nosaintshistory.com/...usketeers.html there is typo here. "32 missile attack".
    Last edited by Nikitn; July 14, 2010 at 06:46 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Yes, thankyou for the history lesson, despite you being wrong about, well, everything. See this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=371772

    Oh and by the time that musketeers reached the battlefield, the Swiss were already past their prime. The Swiss scorned firearms and paid for it.

    Back to school for you. If you don't like the re-balancing, you are welcome to go back to vanilla. Imagine my concern. Bye!
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 14, 2010 at 07:04 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    It was impossible for infantry to engage light cavalry with bows or javelins in close combat, as long as the chosen ground didn't put a major hindrance to the cavalry movement. The only resort for engagement were missile weapons in ranged combat. In this case both cavalry and infantry fought only in a missile exchange. While the infantry can be considered static in comparison to the cavalry, their own protection, the damage their missiles would cause and the hit rate were important.
    For example in the prelude of the battle of Mohi, crossbowmen, protected by pavises, sniped at the Mongol light cavalry, resulting in a tactical defeat of this Mongol unit even if the Mongols did go on to win the overall Battle.[7]
    The defence of such ranged combat units was important, for cavalry could always switch roles and engage the ranged combat infantry (often lightly armored skirmishers) in close combat.
    Against heavy cavalry with lances the following tactics were sometimes effective:
    Missile weapons: The longbow and the crossbow were able to threaten knights. Although the heavy noble cavalry of Middle Ages often fought on foot or at least avoided futile frontal attacks, it happened several times that knightly armies led charges according to their warrior ideal. The results could be devastating. At Crécy (1346) and Poitiers(1356), the French knights suffered heavy casualties against the Welsh/English longbowmen. Important for military archery was the ability to keep several arrows in the air. Thus, while a cavalry charge followed a strict pattern of acceleration (400 metres in 2 minutes, gallop just at the last 150 metres) from a distance beyond effective weapon range, arrows could be launched to hail down on the advancing enemy as they came within effective range.
    Polearms: The long spears (pikes) of Scots and Swiss were an excellent defensive weapon against cavalry. The warriors stood in tight formations like an ancient phalanx, the end of their pikes embedded in the ground, presenting a massive spiked wall. In battle against the Scots, the English knights proved to be as narrow-minded as their French counterparts, employing the classic cavalry charge despite the new challenge of the Scottish pike. In the battles of Stirling Bridge (1297) and Bannockburn (1314) they were defeated by the Scots. While the English imitated this tactic successfully against the French, the Swiss perfected it. Despite longer lances for the knights, this formation was now almost impenetrable. Pikemen with polearms remained an important part of armies throughout the 30 Years War. Later tactics used against this formation included caracole maneuvers with ranged weapons.
    Using advantages of the terrain: Lancers needed hard, plain ground and enough space for attack. A clever enemy avoided battle on open ground and preferred marshy, mountainous or arboreous grounds for battle. The Scots did this at Bannockburn and Stirling, and in nearly all their guerilla fighting against the English, as did the Welsh to a great extent. The Swiss defeated the Austrian knights at the battle of Morgarten (1315) by attacking the knightly army in a narrow place between an acclivity and a swamp. The peasants of Dithmarschen faced in 1500, at Hemmingstedt, the army of the Danish king. They opened the dykes and flooded the country. If the terrain was not well suited for a cavalry attack, English knights often fought on foot and used their lances as pikes.
    from wiki. There is no way cavalry could kill a prepared pikewall...

    from napoleonic era it was a well known FACT that cavalry would never charge head onto a bayonet wall (like musketeers in square formation). The formation was impenetrable for cavalry and most infantry from the front unless people started running or the formation was flanked. And no, pikes were one of the main things that killed off the feudal order.

    where can I download RR?
    Last edited by Nikitn; July 14, 2010 at 09:03 AM.

  4. #4
    Lemming69's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    [QUOTE=Kirov123;7671870]from napoleonic era it was a well known FACT that cavalry would never charge head onto a bayonet wallQUOTE]

    In the timeframe in which stainless steel is set as regards to the presence of pikes, (ie the 16th century) lavish full plate armour was still worn by certain units of cavalry (even if it was indeed becoming obsolete by the advance of gunpowder), so how you can moan and groan at the prospect of such heavily armoured cavalry penatrating a pike wall largely unscathed is unreasonable.

    The cavalry of the napoleonic era was used in a different manner to cavalry on a late medieval battlefield, and also had much lighter protection, if any at protection at all that is- in fact the use of steel breast plates or helmets was entirely decorative. The fact that a line of musketeers equipped with bayonets would have a very different effect on cavalry than a wall of 10ft pikes also puts your argument to scrutiny. It is also incredibly unlikely that pointblank would give pikes an ahistorical disadvantage purely on a whim. As he has explained, there is a reason for these stat tweaks.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    [QUOTE=Lemming69;7674903]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    from napoleonic era it was a well known FACT that cavalry would never charge head onto a bayonet wallQUOTE]

    In the timeframe in which stainless steel is set as regards to the presence of pikes, (ie the 16th century) lavish full plate armour was still worn by certain units of cavalry (even if it was indeed becoming obsolete by the advance of gunpowder), so how you can moan and groan at the prospect of such heavily armoured cavalry penatrating a pike wall largely unscathed is unreasonable.

    The cavalry of the napoleonic era was used in a different manner to cavalry on a late medieval battlefield, and also had much lighter protection, if any at protection at all that is- in fact the use of steel breast plates or helmets was entirely decorative. The fact that a line of musketeers equipped with bayonets would have a very different effect on cavalry than a wall of 10ft pikes also puts your argument to scrutiny. It is also incredibly unlikely that pointblank would give pikes an ahistorical disadvantage purely on a whim. As he has explained, there is a reason for these stat tweaks.
    Sigh*

    My point was, that cavalry in general are unwilling to charge a spear wall, getting impaled. Just like you wouldn't run straight towards a spear being held up.

    As I said, it stands in my source. No cavalry charge can break a massed, PREPARED, spear wall. If soldiers start running away, or acting incompetent then yeah, but not against a solid spear wall.. I do not know the details of the battle of ravenna though I suspect the pikemen started running.

    Pikes were planted in the ground, as well as held up by soldiers. The energy of the horse charge would be so great that if they impacted a firmly held pike the armour would be penetrated easily.

    I wanna end: during this era (15th century), vast majority of infantry were either pikemen or armed with halberds. Only later on did gunpowder start to dominate..
    Quote Originally Posted by smitty View Post
    Is this Kirov guy trolling? Surely his arguments are a poor attempt at a joke...

    Using wiki as your historical documentation: pathetic.
    Referring to Napoleonic cavalry as a reference for medieval warfare tactics: more pathetic.
    Whining to a mod leader who has spent hours upon hours rebalancing unit stats based on historical representations of these units' abilities compared to your complete inexperience with such attempts and blatant lack of education concerning historical warfare and pike strategems: most pathetic.

    Nobody's going to make an "RR" only mod for you; just leave. Seriously, PB could be spending his time doing incredibly more constructive things for this mod than indulging in your poorly thought-out rhetoric. Alas, PB once again maintains the legitimacy of his unit design and stat rebalancing through methodical argumentation and superior historical sources.
    Aww, did I make you angry?
    Last edited by Nikitn; July 15, 2010 at 02:30 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Right on Seether.

    [QUOTE=Kirov123;7681052]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemming69 View Post
    As I said, it stands in my source. No cavalry charge can break a massed, PREPARED, spear wall.
    Evidence? References? Even ONE?

    The fact is, that there is very little actual evidence about just how effective cavalry charges versus prepared infantry were.

    But consider this: at the (dark age) battle of Tours, the veteran spearmen of Charles Martel were wearing approximately 75lbs of metal/wooden armor each, defending downhill, in wooden terrain, and had been trained by Martel for years to withstand cavalry attack.

    In the actual battle, the arab heavy cavalry (about the same as mailed knights) broke the defenses on several occasions, against veteran armored opponents in unfavourable terrain, and almost killed Martel himself, who was only saved by the intervention of his personal bodyguard.

    At the time, it was considered impossible for any infantry to withstand a charge of heavy cavalry.

    There is a reason that the feudal era onwards became known as the 'Age of Impact' in reference to heavy cavalry tactics.

    It is questionnable whether horses wearing blinders could even see pikes.

    Also, pikemen only really started to gain prominence in the 16th century, and even then only the Swiss really stood out, until they were shot to pieces at Biacocca and Marignano.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 15, 2010 at 03:23 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    What are you even complaining about, that PB won't adopt your own assumptions of massed pike formations? If you notice, pikes are more COST effective compared to the uber z0mg pwnz0r cavalry. Of course full plated horse and man will cut through, they're just long sticks with a point on it.

    If you don't like his changes, then do what I do and edit the EDU, the missile properties or what have you, there's 100000 resources on how to edit and people will gladly lend a hand on how to change stuff. For example I didn't like the accuracy for crossbows because I thought they were pretty wimpy, so I changed them to my liking. I didn't compel myself to call PB a for not doing what I wanted. (Btw, wtf is a LOL).

    All in all, I would surrender your dignity and drop your z0mg pike rant. I think pikes are perfect, they're not OP and they're cost effective vs cavalry. They're excellent at holding lines for their mass numbers, and they pwn nubs. Pikes aren't supposed to be an "I WIN" button.

    I like turtles.

  8. #8
    PedroL's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    [QUOTE=Kirov123;7681052]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemming69 View Post

    Sigh*

    My point was, that cavalry in general are unwilling to charge a spear wall, getting impaled. Just like you wouldn't run straight towards a spear being held up.

    As I said, it stands in my source. No cavalry charge can break a massed, PREPARED, spear wall. If soldiers start running away, or acting incompetent then yeah, but not against a solid spear wall.. I do not know the details of the battle of ravenna though I suspect the pikemen started running.

    Pikes were planted in the ground, as well as held up by soldiers. The energy of the horse charge would be so great that if they impacted a firmly held pike the armour would be penetrated easily.

    I wanna end: during this era (15th century), vast majority of infantry were either pikemen or armed with halberds. Only later on did gunpowder start to dominate..

    Aww, did I make you angry?

    Let me put some examples:

    Pikes against cavalry









    I hope this some how ends the discussion
    Glad to help. If any of you need more info or examples in books, please let me know
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  9. #9
    PedroL's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Another battle of Infantry against Cavalry

    Another Battles





    Battle of Aljubarrota
    Portuguese Infantry defeat the Spanish Cavalry



    Battle of Bannokburn



    Plate Armour





    Last edited by PedroL; July 18, 2010 at 11:42 AM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    [QUOTE=PedroL;7698512]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post


    Let me put some examples:

    Pikes against cavalry









    I hope this some how ends the discussion
    Glad to help. If any of you need more info or examples in books, please let me know
    Well, considering that most of those battle scenes are taken from 'Captain Allatriste' we can't be too sure of their historical accuracy Also, note that those cavalry are unshielded, wearing only breastplates and riding unarmored horses. They are also armed with firearms. They would be massacred by charging into a pike wall in RC. They are not in any way comparable to, say, French early-mid 16th century armored-horse super-heavy shock cavalry.

    And yes, the Swiss were formidable. Their initial successes vs cavalry were significantly due to that cavalry never having faced such disciplined opponents before, along with the traditional arrogance of such heavy cavalry. The example video shown with modern infantry is not very helpful. Only the most elite pike units were really considered suitable for such complex maneuvres. Otherwise, if it was so simple, why not just hire a bunch of peasants and give them 1 hour training? The fact is that elite mercenary pike units (Swiss, Landksknechts, later Tercios) dominated because it wasn't easy to train such pike units.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 18, 2010 at 12:31 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    From http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_lancepistol.html

    Despite common belief, the heavy infantry of the Swiss and English models had been dominating European battlefields for some time prior to the dawn of the 16th Century. Compared to the Swiss pike phalanx or the English longbowmen backed by men-at-arms on foot, the heavy cavalry of the feudal pattern, peopled by ungovernable nobles, was as much a liability as a force to be reckoned with. However, French King Charles VIII's compagnies d'ordonnance, consisting of fully armoured nobles and gentry (men-at-arms or gendarmes) mounted on armoured horses, organized and disciplined as well as any force in Europe at the time, changed that in the course of a single battle. When they hit the Italian Condottieri heavy horse at Fornovo in 1495 the Italians were scattered like ninepins, leaving their infantry to be slaughtered at leisure. At Ravenna in 1512, French knights rode completely through a Landsknecht pike-square doing little damage, but proving that they were virtually impregnable. However, such organizations were incredibly expensive to maintain, and only the French crown was capable of doing this to any serious degree. There was an attempt by the Burgundian Dukes and their Habsburg heirs to copy these compaigne d'ordonnance with their own, but they were few in number. When Henry VIII of England invaded France in 1513 he had enormous difficulty in collecting a reasonable number of Men-at-Arms and had to make due with demi-lancers, men wearing only half-armour or three-quarter armour, riding unarmoured horses, and hiring Burgundian (i.e., Netherlandish) heavy horse to compensate for the lack.

    Look, as I said, super-heavy cavalry is highly resistant to pikes. In the charge, they will lose a lot, but once in melee, the pikes are in trouble. Why do you think they included polearms in these formations? M1TW and every miniatures rules set makes pikes of little value in melee vs cavalry. They are mostly good against the charge. Play the Pavia historical battle, watch the French cavalry get massacred when it hits the pike wall.

    Oh, and Napoleonic so-called 'heavy cavalry' was at best light cavalry in Medieval terms. Of course they failed versus the British squares, they had sabres and the horses were in no way comparable to the medieval stallion destrier/warhorse in training, temperament or stature. I would venture to say that a few companies of medieval French Gendarmes would have smashed the British infantry squares at Waterloo, if they had managed to close against the musket fire.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 14, 2010 at 07:44 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Oh snap!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Try the Pavia historical battle, you will see that Pikemen are still very effective - as long as their formation remains intact.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    OK so basically ur entire argument revolves around some vague example where cavalry somehow got through a pike square?? we don't know the details. But in your mod, pikemen get (seriously, no exaggeration) MASSACRED by heavy cavalry. IRL I don't think it is easy to make even these elite medieval horses charge into sharp pikes. Napolenic cavalry would never do this

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Is this Kirov guy trolling? Surely his arguments are a poor attempt at a joke...

    Using wiki as your historical documentation: pathetic.
    Referring to Napoleonic cavalry as a reference for medieval warfare tactics: more pathetic.
    Whining to a mod leader who has spent hours upon hours rebalancing unit stats based on historical representations of these units' abilities compared to your complete inexperience with such attempts and blatant lack of education concerning historical warfare and pike strategems: most pathetic.

    Nobody's going to make an "RR" only mod for you; just leave. Seriously, PB could be spending his time doing incredibly more constructive things for this mod than indulging in your poorly thought-out rhetoric. Alas, PB once again maintains the legitimacy of his unit design and stat rebalancing through methodical argumentation and superior historical sources.
    Wealth beyond measure, Outlander.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    I just played Pavia, and the attacking French Gendarmes got massacred by the defending Landsknechts. Don't expect other than high-quality pikemen to withstand charges by super-heavy cavalry. Note in the battle if Marignano, French heavy cavalry made repeated charges against the Swiss pike squares to delay them - successfully.

    Napoleonic cavalry are completely irrelevant to this argument. They aren't 'heavy' in any medieval sense. Napoleonic 'heavy' cavalry would last about a minute versus Medieval heavy cavalry, especially French Renaissance heavy cavalry.

    Other than Landsknechts and Swiss pikemen (and some others such as Tercois and Adventuros), any other pikemen are strictly attrition units.

    Please read the thread I pointed to. The function of pikemen was to provide a 'wall' behind which gunners could hide. If the wall was penetrated by by determined heavy cavalry, they had polearm units to deal with them.
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 14, 2010 at 09:22 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post

    Napoleonic cavalry are completely irrelevant to this argument. They aren't 'heavy' in any medieval sense. Napoleonic 'heavy' cavalry would last about a minute versus Medieval heavy cavalry, especially French Renaissance heavy cavalry.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Valiant View Post
    Alien vs Predator
    Bruce Lee vs Godzila
    I'll put my money on Bruce lee thank you very much. Anyway on topic, I don't really understand the whining on pikeman nerfing. I only use pike/spear men as charge absorbers (which spearmen aren't good at doing either so I use them as bait) while I get a unit of cavalry to flank the enemy cavalry.

  19. #19
    hippacrocafish's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    Awww snap! historical throw-down!

    I changed the pikemen's stats on my game, what I did is I basically gave them a higher base attack but a very low charge bonus to force the player to use them defensively. Low-quality pikes (Pike Militia, Pikemen) have around 3-4 attack, average-quality pikes (Terico, Aventuros, Late Pikemen etc.) have about 4-6, and Elite pikes (Swiss, Late Terico, etc.) have around 7-8. I also gave the elite pikes (And some average ones) a slightly higher charge bonus and faster movement speed (%10 faster than low-quality pikes) so they can flank their enemies more easily.

    I've made so many changes to the original export_descr_units that it barely resembles PB's original. Cavalry are still dominant though, mostly due to their increased movement speed (+%20 for heavy cav, +%30 for light cav).

  20. #20
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Why did Point Blank :wub: with the unit stats? especially pikemen

    What is with the Anti-PB sentiment lately...if you don't like his changes don't play his mod.

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